It's telling everyone that we've started. - Woo, we're live on Oschool, hey. - Hi everyone. - Hey. - Oh, we're gonna talk about pussy eating, gay love. I can't wait, I can't wait. Hydrate, hydrate. - Lots of hydration. - My clit mug. - If you're just joining us, come join us please. If you're just lurking it's so good to have you. If you wanna join our chat just press the button to chat. And, we're gonna have a really fun time today. Hello to Instagram. - Spencer Money, I love you too. Yay, we're gonna talk about pussy eating. - And then queer dating. - Who loves pussy eating? Giving, receiving, who loves pussy not DJ Khalid, but fuck him. - Who saw the DJ Khalid news? What is that? - Yeah, what's with that, what's with that? Come on now. Yes, for sure Spencer Money. Hey Latin Lady Milf, hi Molly Pics. We're so pumped because we're gonna talk about all things gay tonight, and pussy eating. We're talking queer love. We're gonna talk about baby queer over here. How you gonna date? What you gonna do? Do you know? You'll learn, you'll learn. You'll learn. Hey everyone, so we're just getting set up. This is our set up here. We've got stuff, we've got all the things, all the things. So, I don't know, like we're just really pumped to talk about eating pussy and like giving up some rainbow love. Like, how do we connect with people? Oh, you're so welcome Spencer Money, thank you so much. Thank you, that means a lot to us. We just wanna have like more pleasure, less shame, right? Do whatever you wanna do. The wind is treating us okay because we're in California. So, it's very light. I hear there's like terrible windstorms in the east coast. Thank you Molly Pics, awesome. All right, yes, fuck yes, right? Look at this bad ass tattoo. So, this is our CEO at Oschool, look at this shit. Like what? - I'm shy. - She's shy, she's not shy look at her. She's amazing. How long did that take? - 20 hours. - 20 hours, 20 hours is a boss babe tattoo and then the butt hole. The butt hole is always in my streams. - I don't wanna give Luna back to you Toronto, I wanna keep her here with me in California. - Aw, yeah it is an awesome tattoo, right, yeah. It's amazing. Okay, we're heading over to Oschool. If you can join us great, if not we'll see you another time. There's livestreams everyday, but we really wanna celebrate pussy eating 'cause there's some bullshit going on in the world with people who don't wanna eat pussy. What the fuck? What the fuck? All right, bye everyone see you on Oschool. All right. - Everyone's so sweet. - They're so fun, they're so kind. Hi everyone. - For those of you who are just joining us we're getting started today and I am so excited to learn from Luna Matatas. I don't usually get her here in our headquarters at Oschool. I almost said Odot school. - Odot school. It is an Odot school. - It is a long week. It is Friday. And, I don't usually get Luna here at our HQ headquarters at Oakland, California. It is a wonderful day, and I couldn't be more excited about this stream. - Me too. I'm so pumped, I'm so pumped, right? 'Cause we're gonna talk about giving pleasure and getting pleasure from giving pleasure, right? Like, all the things around how we can ask for what we want and if our partners are reluctant or they don't have the skills or the language to talk with us about what they want and what they like to do too. And, that happens a lot with oral 'cause there's like a lot of assumptions around oral. So, we'll talk about who eats pussy and who doesn't eat pussy and why they do and why they don't. And, we're gonna give you some tips. So, you're gonna leave here a pussy eating champ. - Also wanna plug that Oschool clits have arrived everbody. Oschool clits, hey Omaya, Ocshool clits have arrived. And, we are so excited also to announce that Clitasaurus has an Instagram. You should totally follow. It's Oclitasaurus on Instagram. And, we are so excited to see like all of you here today and we are like Luna said a little bit earlier we will be giving one clit away today. - Oh yeah. - Woo. - So, we're gonna encourage you to find all the clits in your life, your own or your partners, but we're also gonna give you one. So, you'll have a chance to win that one. - Like a mini one, so this is the average size in the body. - Yeah. - Give it some scale. This is the average size in the body and this is Clitasaurus. - So cute, right? So cute, so cute. Lots of people don't know stuff about the clit. Right, like did you see a clit in school? - Never, not once. - Yeah, and most people think that the clit is just sort of like this part. So, this is sort of all we see, right? - Well, we see this guy, right? And, most of us think the clit's just this little button, little button here. And, that's what this guy, right here, it sticks out. This is the external part. But really, this all inside. It's an 8,000 nerve ending organ. It's the only organ in the human body that's only job is to have pleasure. And, it's also an organ that keeps growing as we age. And so, most people don't know this, most people don't know that all of the internal pleasure that our body feels, the origin of it is the clitoris. - Yeah, and so lots of us don't focus enough of our pleasure when we're giving pleasure to our own pussies or to other people's pussies that's there's so much more than that little nub, right? So like, stimulating all these areas, all around, arousing our biggest sex organ in our brain, right, like our erotic mind. All those things are gonna add to the experience of someone who is receiving oral sex and also to the experience of someone who's giving oral sex. Like, there's lots of fun in giving, right? Like, it feels good to make someone else moan and get wet and get aroused, right? - It's about connection. - Connection, yeah. - No matter what genitals are giving and receiving there's this, I think like there's just been so much message around this idea that it's foreplay. And today, I definitely wanna speak about how we need to stop talking about things that give, especially people with vulvas that play is not foreplay. It's not just the, the main event is not penis play, right? There's a world of things that give vulva owners pleasure. And, that's not foreplay, that's sex. That's the whole main event. And, I think that there needs to be way more conversations about that. I mean, I know I love to hear your thoughts. But, I know for me growing up Phillipino Catholic I was taught nothing about queer sex. I wasn't taught about sex period, even in a heteronormative way. But, in my culture everything that happened with homosexual couples was really sinful and evil. And so, not only did I have to overcome just not having an education I had to overcome just a lot of just pure damaging information. I think that's one reason that a lot of pleasure that's outside of baby making activities, which is penis in vagina penetrative sex is thought of as kinky or weird, which absolutely is not the case. - Yeah, it's just sex. - All sex. - All pleasure. It's all deliciousness, it's all arousal. It's all feeling like your sexual confidence is coming out in the way that you pleasure someone or the way you receive pleasure. And so like, like Andrea's saying like a lot of us didn't learn this growing up either through religious, household or lack of sex ed in schools. Like, I didn't have a sex positive family either. I mean, I got a book that said 28 Days when I was about to get my period. And, like that was the extent of like-- - Sex ed for me was periods. - Yeah, babies. - And babies and avoiding STIs and that's it, that was pretty much it. It was babies, STIs, and periods. - Yeah, so I'd love to know for those of you tuning in like did you hear about the clitoris. Like, did you hear about pleasure when you were growing up. Did you have influences where you heard about it, either your family or friends or school. Or, some of you may be really lucky and went to progressive schools, I don't know. Hey KittenSix, welcome. - Hey KittenSix. - Welcome, 'cause it's really tough for us to find like accurate information, too, right? So, a lot of us are sort of fumbling around we're using porn, we're kind of like trying to move through and find out what our pleasure is like with a lot of shame and very little support for pursuing the kind of pleasure that we actually wanna receive. - And, it's like you can walk through a CVS or a Walgreens or any sort of drug store and just be, not even knowing you're being sent messages. Like, I know like for me like I grew up with this idea like oh this was not an area that I should be looking at or touching. Like, I remember being like chastised as a young child about like don't look or don't touch down there. Like, this is a scary area. And then, you walk through a CVS or drugstore and you get all these like products around like freshening up. And then, all these messages about like this is not an area that we really were taught to feel sexy about. It's a part that men are taught that like they should aspire and want to use, basically for their own pleasure. But, I think for so many of us, I just know for me I grew up completely disconnected that I even had a pussy. - Oh yeah. - Completely. - Yeah, for sure. And like, my pussy doesn't smell like roses, it not supposed to smell like roses. - Or vanilla. - Or vanilla or lavender. Yeah, have you ever seen like the scented feminine hygiene products like maxi pads, those kinds of things. Those things are awful and they're usually made with lots of chemicals that aren't really good for our vaginal ecosystem anyways. And so, we're trying to meet or fix an insecurity that isn't actually true. We were just told that our genitals are dirty, that they're unhygienic and that people are going to think they smell that they're too leaky. That the stains on our panties are bad. That all of these things that are really natural and actually very delicious about our bodies we're actually told are terrible and that we're gonna be rejected for them. - Totally, KittenSix didn't remember hearing about it growing up. And, maybe on Sex in the City, but wasn't sure what it was. I actually remember, like there was an episode, I didn't watch Sex in the City, I wasn't allowed to. But, there was like a part of one of the episodes that I remember and all you could see like a head underneath the sheets in this area and that was a pretty formative memory for me, too, 'cause that's like, there's something happening under there. And, I remember the scene that stuck out to me was like the women were talking like, "Oh like he's great." And, I was like, "What is this about?" It was something that I had no frame of reference to what they could be talking about. So, thank you for bringing up Sex in the City, KittenSix based on this topic because that is one of the first times I think I was ever exposed to that idea that that would even happen. Like, how often in movies does oral sex on a pussy ever happen? - Okay, so Scandal, who watches Scandal? Because Olivia Pope in Scandal got like pussy eaten all the time. So, every scene was like her and one of these like powerful dudes, it was like the dudes like going down on her. And then, they did like other things. But, it's so rare, it's rare that we see that happen. We also see pussy eating as like a submissive act that somehow the person giving pleasure to the other person is in a more submissive or less, the subservient sort of position. That's not true 'cause anyone, anything that you do in sex whether it's pussy eating or hugging or kissing or fucking or whatever it is that you do its just the activity. You're actually putting like a mood, and an intention, and like I wanna eat you up, you're mine. Or like, here eat me up, I wanna feed you. So, we're putting all the moods behind the things by engaging something other than just like our body. We're using our techniques from our mouth and our fingers and all these things. But, we're also using our minds. And, that's where like the connection that Andrea's talking about also comes from. - So, there was an episode where Miranda in Sex in the City was trying to get a guy to give her oral sex. I never saw that one. - I remember. - I saw the one where there was some like they were all dating like a person who was really good at like giving and they were talking about, kind of like locker room talk almost about that. And, I was like, "What is that about?" And, I thought that was so cool. I think that also this really ties in, so if you haven't heard there was a Breakfast Club interview where DJ Khalid, a musician, just happened I think today that the news broke where he reported that he doesn't eat the box, he doesn't eat pussy. And, he expects oral sex from his wife because he is a king, but he just like would not go down his wife. And obviously, it was brought up like that's unfair. Like, how could that be, how could you call her a queen and not do that. The thing about it and like I'm really excited that we're doing this stream today and can share it with all of you. And, I love your thoughts on it, but the idea that someone doesn't wanna give oral sex. Like, okay that would be okay, but the fact that the partner is expected to give oral sex to DJ Khalid is really sexist-- - It's bullshit. - And really problematic. And also, the problematic thing is he was like, "Well, she's a queen, like she has a nice house, "she has a nice car." It was like a financial, and this is idea of bartering. Like, how and I think this is something that I definitely even when I was in relationships with people with penises it always felt like, "Oh well, oral sex and how "do you negotiate it?" How 'bout if someone loves going down on someone for two hours and someone else just wants it for 10 minutes and like this feeling of imbalance. Like, I think we'll go over that today, but this is in the news, right? Like, not giving pussies enough time is a real remnant, or just like a real pervasive idea that we get from patriarchy that the object of sex is male pleasure. - Yep, Clitasaurus is pissed about this. Clitasaurus says no, no. Give and get, yes Pink and Pretty, yes exactly. And, there's joy in giving. There's joy in seeing like someone not only as an object for you to devour with your desire, but as something that you're giving and creating a circuit of giving and getting pleasure. So, I feel good when I touch someone or kiss someone or lick someone and they start to experience pleasure. I can feed off of them experiencing pleasure. And then, you also receive it. And so, for a lot of us receiving can also be tough right? Because of those messages, because we know that sometimes people think that eating pussy gives you bad breath or that all these very, very misogynist things around our bodies, and part of it is what we were just talking about. For those of you who just joined the stream we're talking about the lack of knowledge around the clitoris. Right, and so because we don't really know, we don't look at our genitals, we don't get enough anatomical information about pussies and clitorises and so we don't necessarily have the connection to our bodies to be able to even challenge a lot of the misogyny that goes on around our scent, our smell, our taste. And so, we're missing out, we're missing out. - Absolutely, and this is a really big problem. Right now straight women are having the fewest orgasms of any other group, right? You've heard of the wage gap, this is the orgasm gap. Every time a heterosexual man has sex there's a 95% chance that he will have an orgasm, right? And, only 65% of straight women report having orgasm every time they have a sexual encounter. This is a problem right? And, we know that this is not biological because lesbians on this study that just came out reported like 86% of the time being. So, there's definitely a gap here on terms of giving and getting pleasure. And, the majority of people with vulvas need some sort of clitoral stimulation to have an orgasm. There are some people that can climax without, but this is a really important part of sex for people with vulvas, with pussies. - Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, we're gonna talk about like how do you get this pleasure, right? How do you get it? How do you give it? How do you ask for it? What if your partner doesn't want to go down on you? What do you do with that? And so, we'll chat a bit about how that communication can play out, especially if someone is like kind of negative towards it and kind of exploring like where that comes from. So, a lot of like phallic penis centered sex focuses on male pleasure and male desire and male consumption of female bodies. And, that's also connected to our sex shaming culture where we think that sex is just for reproduction that we don't prioritize female pleasure. That when the dick is done sex is done. And, we have a lot more to offer than just bumping genitals, right? So, were gonna talk about how you lick some genitals, how you taste and suck and juicy up some genitals. KittenSix says "dudes need to learn how to use a vibrator "on a woman." Yes, we're gonna also show, we've got some vibe stuff we're gonna show. - Snaps. - Snaps. - KittenSix, thank you like I honestly, that's like one of the biggest barriers, I think that I experience, like the shame around using vibrators. Like, we're talking about pussy eating today, but absolutely use toys, add it, combine it, like integrate it, vibrator use is so awesome. Hi Mocha Kisses, you're not late we're just getting started. - Yeah, don't worry we're just get into things Mocha Kisses. Okay, so we're gonna talk a little bit just to give you a rundown of the structure of the clitoris. So, Andrea was showing you, can I have the pussy? - You can have the pussy. - You can have the pussy, so this is your vulva, right? So, we've got the clitoral hood up here. You've got the clitoris right here, right, the head of the clitoris is right here. Then, you've got your urethra. This pink thing is like the g-spot that's sort of usually tucked up. The opening is your vagina. And then, you've got the labia minor and the labia majora. So, this is kind of what we're looking at. And then, the clitoris is the structure that's behind all of this. So, the little head of the clitoris popping out here would be the little nub that you see here. So, most people kind of focus when they're doing stimulation on a clit or stimulation on a vulva they tend to be just like jamming everything here. So, you see people doing like a DJ. Or they get in and they're just like. And you're like, what, what and you're like what are you doing? Who does that work for? So, all pussies like all different kind of things, right? So, the one way to kinda find out like what your partner likes is to kind of talk about it. And, lots of people are very shy and maybe inarticulate about what they like. So, asking even binary questions when you're doing something to someone, so if I'm doing this to someone and I'm just kind of, "Did you cum? Did you cum? "Do you like it?" Or like finger banging, right? Finger banging. So, if you're doing any of those things and you're learning as you go, right? So, even us givers like there's different bodies, there's different people so we don't know. So, asking questions like, "Oh, like do you like it "softer or harder? "Do you like directly on your clit or on the side?" Like, "What can I do for you?" Giving compliments, "You taste great," and being like "you smell amazing." Can help people kind of also relax into giving you more information about what feels good for them. - And, for me, I think the key too is not ever thinking that your experience is valid. So, this applies to queer women, too. Like, two people with vulvas someone may like more of a stripe movement, someone may want more of a circular. And, if we're always doing to other people what we like this is just for any queer women out there, then we miss out that every body is unique, everybody. And so, it's always kind of special and so exciting to discover someone's body. And so, Kate Kenfield talks about this all the time that that happened. Like, we need to make sure that when Kate talks about pussy pleasure she always talks about meeting a lesbian couple where one person likes stripes and the other person likes circles and they weren't communicating about it. They were doing what they liked to each other and neither of them were happy. And so, I think it does like it's important to realize that, and so if you have a girlfriend or someone with a vulva that you pleasured in the past applying what you've learned to them to your next partner won't work. And so, starting slow and really having an open mind, like let's do some experiments. Like let's do this, do you like this. Do you like the pressure, the speed, the amount of lube or the not too much lube, vibrator use, dildo all of these different kinds of things are gonna be unique for every person. And, it's part of the fun of it. - Yeah totally, like get curious, get clit curious, like discover people. And, you can even do things like it can be really sexy to do like a show and tell. You can do like a "teach me to touch you," and like show someone. - After this is all because of the masturbation show. This is exactly what that's for. It's like, "Hey baby, come show what you like," and then you're studying. You're like trying to be sexy but you're like, "Okay, counterclockwise, medium pressure upper "right hand quadrant." I'm a dork, so sorry you're not gonna get, Luna's like full fun. Like, for me, I'm a dork, I'm like this pressure, this quadrant of the clit, this is it let's go there. - Pull out your protractor, I don't know. - Counterclockwise, I tend to get really excited about learning all the things that are truly different and unique about every body. So, that's what I tend to-- - Yes, so many different approaches. - I love watching people masturbate. - Yeah, and just taking a really like playful and we fuck up and we don't always know exactly how to do the thing. And, what makes us great lovers is that we're trying and we're being responsive to the body that we're with. - And people change, like sometimes a go to move stops working. I don't know, I feel like clits, Clitasaurus they're like little mischievous beings. They sometimes like one type of sensation and then six months later it's like, "Oh, want something totally different." So, you might want the DJ move some days and you might want something slow and soft and sensual other days. Like, I know that for me my clit is just different everyday. Hey, hey Elsie it's so good to see you. I haven't been able to be on a stream with you in a while. Hi Nat if I haven't said hi and hi Buttercup. "I work in a high school and deal with a steady stream "of boys hacking the firewall to research how to eat pussy. "There's hope for the future." Yay. - That's amazing, Buttercup. You're doing the Lord's work, that's awesome. Fabulous, we're so happy to hear that because most of us don't get that education. Most of us don't understand it. We're relying on kind of like magazine articles and Google and lots of things written from the perspective of pleasing like one type of body or one type of way. Not really like learning to connect with each other. Yeah, yeah Omaya right, my god, that's like amazing. Did you wanna talk about some barriers to receiving? - Let's definitely talk about some barriers to receiving. So, we did a little bit talked about just all the messages that we are fed that our pussies don't smell good, that they're dirty. Like you can walk into a drugstore and get these messages. I got them as a child as like, "Oh, like these are "your dirty areas or your bad areas." I once heard like this really weird thing from a religious person like, "If God meant for you to play in the playground "why would he like put it by a swamp," or something. I don't know who like, it was like something really absurd like that. I'm not doing it justice. It was more fucked than that. But, it was like all these messages that and let's just dispel that. Our pussies don't need to smell like vanilla, or cherries, or strawberries. - Nope, you don't need douches. You don't need added scents. There's a difference between like a ripeness, where maybe you're sweaty or it's all day. Like, that just happens. That happens to your armpits. That happens, like you know, behind here. It happens between your boobs. It happens to dicks. It happens to assholes. - Yeah, let's talk about dicks always smell like vanilla, right? Come on, no, no. - It's doesn't-- - What? - I forgot what I was gonna say. - Sorry. - It's okay. You were thinking about vanilla dicks. - Oh yeah vanilla dicks, there's no vanilla dicks. - You were just like no. - No vanilla dicks. - Hi Lilac, good to see you. We're talking about barriers to receiving, right. So like, pussies don't have to smell a certain way as long as like you feel good and you're taking care of your hygiene then really try to feel confident about the way that your pussy shows up. And typically, when we just talk about it I think pussies are like amazing. I think they're so like, I feel like it's getting to know someone's real true like pheromones. It's really sexy. - So, that's a really good point that Miss Cheifo was talking about. Like, we have pheromones that help us increase arousal and attraction and connection to each other during sex. So, being in someone's genitals and smelling their natural scent is actually part of how we get more turned on. And, when we think about all the disconnection that we have to our genitals, right. There are things that you can do to get more confident with your own body if you're a vulva owner. So, doing something like taking like a hand mirror and putting it between your legs, isn't this beautiful. - Luna made this. - Yeah, I made this. - Luna hand did every single, look at this mirror. - I'm committed, I'm committed to the clit. - First of all, I just wanted to bring attention to that. So yeah, that's a great, let me be your model. - Yeah, be the model, yeah. So, looking, you're going to look. Yep, there you go. Yep, so you're taking the mirror and you just wanna look. You wanna see what you look like, 'cause a lot of times we don't even know what our own pussies look like. So, I had watched porn for a really long time. And, I wasn't watching diverse porn. I was seeing usually like white women, white pussies. So, when I looked at my pussy in the mirror I have dark lips and a pink hole. And, it didn't look like the pussies. And, people have different size labia. I have pubes, some people don't have pubes. Some people have their clit is really far away from their hole. So, there's lots of diversity of pussies. And, getting to know your own helps you kind of normalize that this is what it looks like. So, if some bullshitter is like, "Ew, you need to shave "or you need to do this." You're just like, "No, I love my pussy, "I touch it the most." - All pussies are beautiful and I have to say I didn't look at my own pussy until I was 24 years old. - Oh wow, yeah. - I'd started two technology companies before I had ever seen my own pussy. And, it was because a partner had like taken a picture and was saying all these nice things. And, I actually like didn't wanna look at it. Like, that's how much programming I had. And, I actually talked to a gynecologist who told me that when there is like an exam and there's a mirror half of vulva owners will decline to look at their own pussies. So, it's like this rampant kind of like avoidance of like seeing our own pussies. And, I think this is a disservice 'cause you wanna know like what kind of pussy you have and also just start to appreciate it because someone is going to see it, right. And, I think that this is, this mirror trick is super important. - Yeah, and notice your wetness, or notice your juiciness or notice the next time you have stains on your panties. Like, those are all of your natural juices coming out. One thing that helped me really get comfortable when I thought that I smelled or I was like, am I supposed to smell like this, so I smelled myself on my fingers. And so, for some people that's also like a connection to the eroticism as well. And, if you think that's too much, that's okay. But, the idea that we're just trying to figure out like is this normal, is someone gonna be offended by this? Is someone gonna like how I taste? We sort of have to get to a point of acceptance before we can really accept receiving pleasure from someone. You may even get someone that's like so enthusiastic about eating your pussy and you're like, "No, I smell bad, or I taste bad." - There's nothing worse than that. There's nothing worse than like wanting to give someone and then having their own kind of, I was that person. I was that. I really had trouble receiving. I always wanted to be in control. And, it wasn't because I didn't want the things, it was because again these like horrible messages that, "Oh, what if I don't smell good. "Or what if they don't like it. "Or what if I take too long." We're gonna focus on that for a lot longer, that was like my number one thing. Like, I don't want to take too long. I wish more doctor's office had mirrors for exam days. Yeah, Pink and Pretty, me too. I didn't have that doctor, I was talking to another gynecologist who did that. And, I was like, "Good for you." And, I had another friend, fuck this friend, her mom would like bring a mirror and like do it, like help them, kind of separately but like look at their own and then like give her daughter a tour. And, I was like, no, that is not what I experienced. I think that's awesome. I think that's so great. - That's amazing. - To get a tour of that. And, to your point too, I think like the more that we can be appreciative of our own scent it's like, I don't for example, this is for everyone to decide but like I'm really positive about someone kissing me after receiving oral. - Me, too. - And, I think if you don't know your own scent and you're not used to your own scent then that can be kind of hard. And so, especially if you're masturbating like it's your body. Like appreciate your body and then when it comes down to having sex it can be such an intimate experience. - Yeah, it's so intimate. And, the other thing is to like some of us are afraid of receiving because maybe we think we can't cum from it. So, lots of us cum from oral. - I never cum from oral. - Some of us don't cum from oral. - I have never cum from oral sex. - And so, for the idea that like you feel like you have to perform for your partner is totally wrong. You don't need to perform for anyone. This is sort of about relaxing. If you need to go to a masturbation fantasy in your head. If you don't wanna watch them, if you wanna kind of like spread out maybe touch your rest of your body, or hold a vibrator against you. You can do any of those things to make it more pleasurable for you so that you can feel like the receiving is not directed towards the goal of orgasm. - Yeah, I totally appreciate that lesson Luna. Like, this is, I love oral sex, but absolutely it does not have to get to an orgasm. And I think if you're a partner out there like the least sexy thing I can be told during oral sex is, "I'm going to make you cum." Like, there couldn't be anything worse than hearing that. You're like, "No you're not, okay." - I'm like, maybe you'll be here if I do, but. - Nat has a great question, "how do we then support partners "to gain that confidence without pushing against barriers "or their comfort level." It's a great question, Nat. - Yeah so, what I've done in the past and I've often, if someone's had an aversion to oral sex or an aversion to squirting or juices or things like that I try and ask questions. So, very gently, and usually outside of the moment, not as your pulling down your panties and you're like, "go." Maybe like during foreplay or like or even just outside like while you're on a date or something like that and kind of being like, "Oh, so like why? "Why, why don't you wanna do this?" And, if it's just maybe they're a lack of confidence in their skills. When I started eating pussy I didn't know how, I didn't know how to do it. I was like. Is that what people like, I didn't know and I didn't have the communication skills to like ask. I didn't know how to ask my partner. I didn't know how to read responses in like different bodies. Some people are quiet some people are loud. And so, kind of asking the question like, okay, "Like, what's the barrier here. "Like I'd love you to do this with me. "Like what is it? Is it the smell?
"Is it taste? Is it lack of skill?" 'Cause all of those things can be overcome. So, some people like to eat pussy that's fresh out of the shower. So then, go and have a shower together and do that experience together. But, kind of knowing where someone's like blocking point is can also help you not go into the story that it's about you. That it's about you not being attractive or delicious or desirable. You can kind of understand well what's their barrier to giving. - Or receive, and again I had just as many barriers to receive and give. I think I had equal, there were equal barriers on both sides for me personally. And, thank you for asking that Nat, and thank you for being a supportive partner. I mean, that's a first step, I think. And, we'll talk about more ways to be a supportive partner. - Yeah, well another way for Nat is also to really think about like giving positive feedback. So, if someone's doing something and you're not really into it you can be like, "I love having your face "between my legs," or "I love licking between your legs, "what else would you like?" Or, "I think I really would like it if you "touched me too," or "I would like you to touch my thighs, "or pet my mound." Giving feedback that is kind of, it helps direct someone. And so, it's not like, "That sucks, do it different." But, it's like, "I love that you're doing this, "can you do it softer?" "I love that you're doing this, can you do it "a little bit firmer?" Things like that can really help build someone's confidence for giving or receiving. - And, non-value oriented language like that, like what Luna just modeled is perfect. Like, "Hey baby, that's so good, could you just "go a little to the left or a little to the right "or a little harder or a little faster." And, avoid words like hey like better or worse or anything that's gonna attack someone. But, it's like a helping guide them, like "Oh, that's so good, just a little to the right, "a little to the left." Whatever it is, those kinds of instructions are so sexy and helpful. Okay Elsie, after a hair cut they show you a mirror and you take a look at yourself, doc's office should offer this option, too. Yes, that would be amazing, doctor's office option like a hair cut. Concetta is sharing that their first orgasm was from oral sex. "It was so strong I almost blacked out," amazing. That's awesome. - That's really great. - What was like your best oral sex? What do you think? What was good about it? What did they do? - Yeah, I would love to hear everyone else. I think someone already kind of said it, like what a wonderful reminder that we don't need to perform for anybody. That really takes the pressure off. I think the best for me, especially as I started to explore kind of queer sex and things like that the idea I didn't have to moan or look hot or worry about any of that. I think for me the oral sex started getting amazing when I started to get out of my head and started to get out of this idea that there was a certain way I, as the receiver, had to react. And so, if I was like quiet for like a solid 15 minutes that would be okay. And, if I was kind of rolling around everywhere that was okay, too. Or, if I wanted to add a vibrator, that was okay. It was this idea that I was completely about me and not about, like that idea of performance especially if you were socialized as a woman is, I feel like super distracting during sex. - Me too. - I was one of the main barriers to enjoying sex for me. - Me too. - Yay, Pink and Pretty also likes kissing after oral. - Oh yes. - Super intimate, super love it. Awesome, well I'd love to hear, does anyone else have any fears for the receiving side or the giving side? We're gonna go into more of the giving. - Yeah, we're gonna give you tips for giving. So right, so you're gonna be good givers. You're gonna be good communicators. You're gonna have good technique. You're gonna have good etiquette for giving, right? Yeah, we'd love to know what. I love that Nat's into Heart. That's really great. I'm so glad that you asked that question, Nat. It's so wonderful to be able to talk about like how do we be gentle with our partners, right? 'Cause everyone's sort of going into this being like yeah like I don't know how do you do this or like I wanna support you in what you wanna do. A lot of times like having pussy eating being taken away as part of sex sometimes people feel that we don't have a right to kind of say, "But hey, I want that," because, someone doesn't wanna do it. So, you don't have to do anything that anyone wants you to do just because they want you to do it. But, you do have an opportunity to kind of like unpack, like "So why, what else is about this. "And, why don't you wanna do this?" - KittenSix, "I don't have much experience with women "so I'm very nervous about it." I feel the same. I'm a baby queer. I'm gonna talk a little about that story in the second hour, in detail. We're gonna talk about queer women dating. But, you're not alone KittenSix. - No. - I think like what Luna's saying too is it's to have courage to not be great at something. I feel like we're told that our sexual ability it's really like connected to our worth or our skills as a lover is connected to, in the beginning sex takes a little bit of time to get good. And, that's okay. And so, I think for me my advice to anyone who's like nervous about starting, we're gonna talk about tips, but the first tip is just be gentle with yourself. And know, that just the idea that you want to do something like this that's so intimate to someone is so hot. And, it means so much, like just having that enthusiasm is already half the battle. And, being good in the skills it just takes time and every vulva is different, okay? - So, we're gonna give you some general tips for vulva stuff. Oh KittenSix, I'm so glad you're a baby queer. Yeah, you came out as bi last year congratulations, amazing. Omaya says, "I love that Miss Chiefo have courage "to not be great at something." Absolutely, sex is playful, like curious, and creative. Like you have to try the things or explore the things or explore how you feel about the things to like get good at them, right? - Totally. - Mocha Kisses says, "my partner is silent during oral sex "so I need to work on communication so that I can "please her better, meanwhile she is excellent at giving. "I want to learn." Mocha Kisses, that's wonderful. That's so wonderful that you're so invested in your partner's pleasure and you wanna learn how you can give even more. So, some people are sort of quiet during oral sex and what you can also have them do is like use their hands or listen to their sounds and their breath. So, some people get very heavy breathing or kind of like I purr, I purr during like good stuff, right, right, yeah. - Of course you purr. - Of course I do, of course that's what I do. Or some people have like they like to put their hands on their partner's head. So, if it's someone that I don't really, if I know someone's kind of quiet I'll be like, "Baby, just put your hands on head." And, you'll feel them kind of like tighten or maybe like pull you a bit. You can use other types of sensory reactions to gauge if what you're doing is good. If they're silent you also be like, "Hey, how does this feel "'cause I love doing it." Some of the language that we talked about, earlier. And like really like allowing someone and giving them permission to tell you what's good for them. Hi Luchia, welcome. I need to plug this in. - Oh yes, you need to. I'm going to charge us. Excuse us, more times. - Trying to hit up, the tension's not working. Okay, so Andrea's gonna make sure we have power because the pussy eating technique part is coming up. All right, so where's my vulva, I lost my vulva. Oh welcome everyone, so welcome everyone that's tuned in. Welcome to Eat Pussy Like a Champ, champ. We're talking about giving and receiving cunnilingus. So, oral sex and all the barriers to oral sex feeling like maybe you're not worthy of it or you stink or you taste bad or things like that. So, we're trying to bust all that stuff and because it's getting in the way of us having good pleasure. It's getting in the way of us getting the kind of pleasure that we want. It's getting in the way of us giving the kind of pleasure that we want. And, there's a lot of like bullshit misogyny around pussies and like really like not being able to celebrate them as part of a sexual experience. They aren't just there to receive sexual pleasure from penetration or things like that, right? Whether it's fingers or dildos, or dicks or whatever it is. I'm surrounded by pussies and butt holes, so I'm in my happy place. So, we've got, so we're gonna just like go quickly over the anatomy again. So, our vulvas, I love pussy too Luchia. Our vulvas are the external part, right. So, think of the vagina, which we have learned mostly in kind of incorrect sex ed, we call the whole thing the vagina. But, that's like calling your face your mouth. So, we're talking about all the different ways to kind of learn how we can stimulate clits and vulvas beyond just like the DJ clit, right? So, beyond just kind of like going to town on like the head because we actually have this amazing structure. We have the clitoris, this is Clitasaurus, follow them on Instagram, Oclitasaurus. Miss Chiefo is back. We're just refreshing vulva anatomy and then we're gonna talk about some of the pleasure tips, right? So, you've got this whole structure that's right behind the vulva. And so, the tip, this little part is the part that's kind of buttoning out. So, most people call that the clit, right? They refer to it as touch the clit, or lick the clit, or suck my clit. But, because the clitoris has legs and it's got these bulbs, right? So, all of this also engorges during sex. So, as you get more aroused, and that can be through touch, that can be through aesthetics. Some people are really turned on by like looking at things. That can be through your erotic mind, so thinking sexy things. Think about when you have a sexy moment and so the term lady boner is actually kind of accurate, right? So, when you think about something sexy there is blood flow that happens around your vulva. And so, all of that swelling up is what makes it even more exciting and erotic to touch more than just the clitoral hood, or the clitoris. So, you've got like all this available. So, lots of people will enjoy more direct clitoral stimulation. So, the best thing is to kind of go slow, to just kind of like feel it out. Like, don't go straight for this. -DJ. - Like, a lot of mainstream porn shows very like aggressive and some people like that. Some people, are into that - For sure. - But you don't right? - But few people like it right away. Maybe it's like third orgasm time, but I think it's like really safe to start slow and go on different quadrants. Some people don't like very direct pleasure. Going slow, I think, is such an important tip. - Yes, yes if you think it's time to move on to the next area stay there a little bit longer. So, that's the rule of thumb I sort of use. You can also do things like light kissing, like because that's sucking motion for people is very gentle. The saliva from your mouth creates less friction, on a dry sort of area. You can also use the sides. So, some people like this motion, so that it's not directly on the clitoris, that you're kind of stimulating all around. And remember, this is behind here. So, you're still getting all the good touchy, feely amazing sexy spots. Do you wanna hold this one? You hold Clitasaurus. So, the vulva you've also got you've got your labia majora, your labia minora. So, there's lips outside, lips inside. Some people have smaller lips, some people have meatier lips. I have a meatier pussy. I have a hairy pussy. Lots of people are against hair or for hair. It's really just preference. It doesn't make someone cleaner or dirtier, anything like that. Hair actually traps scent. So, for those of us who are like into scent, and into receiving more pheromones and feel good chemicals from someone that's actually a bonus for those of us who are into that. So, we've got the clitoris and so when we're thinking about like the areas that we can stimulate we talked a little bit around like our little button here, right? So, you can do all kinds of things here. You can also like pull the lips, like some people like feeling like gentle pulling, gentle stretching. So, think about it this is on someone's body and you've got your face here, and you're kind of just like touching them and exploring them, licking up and down. Right, like lapping that kind of motion can feel amazing, because you're hitting this whole structure by doing those gentle things on the outside. Once you've got it kind of warmed out I actually like to do a little bit of like tease. So, you get this like, you got it going, you got a rhythm continuity of whatever motion that you're doing usually helps a lot of people with vulvas get and continue to be aroused. So, if something's working and someone's like, "Yeah babe, "like I love when you touch my lips like that." - Don't change, don't stop. - Don't change. Keep it going. And, if they say or they look bored or they're not making noise you can do a little bit firmer. You can change your speed. You can slow it down. You can go down instead of like up and down. You can kiss areas while you're doing things. You can also use penetration at the same time that you're eating something. You can also use like just like even like the areas around it. So, you know that area between your like pussy and your thigh, so that's like an underserved erogenous area. It traps a lot scent, it traps sweat, it traps juices. And, a lot of people feel very erotic because that area's also connected to parts of like arousal tissue that are around it and behind it. Okay, we've got questions. You've got 15 more minutes, so pump your questions in. - People loving pubic hair, yay. How do you stay present in the moment and not speed up? Music is helpful, like stick to a beat. I can say that as like a receiver, as a former pillow princess, baby queers also out there, I can say that it's really important that you don't get excited and speed up. Everybody's different, some people like that, but I would say from a lot of people I've heard the most common complaint is every time I'm like really close and it's really good someone will just switch gears. And so, I think Luna says like breathe, watch their breathing. So, you yourself should breathe to keep calm. Watch the other person's breathing, watch their hip movements. See like how they're responding. Like, that's really important. And, what if my mouth gets tired? Bless you Kitten, yes. - Yes. - I think this is the importance of starting slow, like using hands, using like, and I love your tips, but I think when people go right, like if you get the right spot you're gonna need to stay there oftentimes. And so, you wanna just like take your time and like build and use your hands and maybe use other kind of different movements. And then, the repetitive movement, the tongue movement you're gonna hit stride and you're gonna need to probably keep in that stride. And so sometimes it's like tongue and chin and lip like coordination, it's not all tongue. It's sometimes you're using your bottom lip, you're like-- - Use your chin. Get your chin there. - Get the chin like. - Fuck somebody with your chin today. Yeah, it's amazing to be able to use all parts of your face, right? So, you're not just reliant on like where your jaw is gonna get tired from doing like this motion, right? Even slowing down, like what you were saying like the lapping of your tongue so that it's like and then you're going down, right? So, that also gives you a break in between. Using your breath, so having like hot breath against like a spitty area or where you put your saliva on or someone's juices are on can feel amazing because of the contrast between like the hot air and sort of like the cold wetness. - So, a lot of mouth and jaws are getting tired. For me, I think the biggest advice is just it's the pacing right, it's like a marathon. You don't come out of the gate of a marathon sprinting right. And so, I think a lot of people lose stamina. And so like keeping that pace and like really building up and then when you have a move that's really working like you have to kind of ration that tongue and jaw energy for that, I would say the end of the race. And, I know when I used to run I would sprint the last mile. I think it's similar in this way. Stopping can be for the edge of climax. I absolutely think that's true. Like coming back and forth and, it's okay to take a break. It's okay to have a kiss break or a touch break. - It's also okay to bring in a pinch hitter. - I mean, pinch hitter at the end this is, someone will just pop off. - Yeah, they'll just pop off, their head's gonna pop off and fall onto the floor. And, it also helps your mouth not get as tired. So, you can mix it up. There's no shame in like doing this or putting this inside someone while you're doing something else. Like get creative, get into it. Like, see how much you can deliver to this like yummy person that spread their legs for you. Like, that's beautiful. There was a question about dental dams back there, too. So, we're gonna talk about that. So, dental dams are actually pieces of latex, they're like square pieces of latex. And, they help put a barrier between your mouth and whatever orifice you're licking or eating so whether it's an anus or whether it's a vulva. And, they help prevent the transmission of fluids and bacteria and sexually transmitted infections. Some people also like them because they can prevent if you wanna eat someone out during menstruation or you wanna eat someone out-- - Or you wanna go like ass to pussy. - Yeah, yeah so it can really help you. Do you wanna hold my vulva? - I would love to hold your vulva. Here, do it. - You get your little dental dam, you put a little bit of lube on the side that's gonna go on the vulva. I love that your face in the vulva, I'm gonna call you vulviface from now on. - Okay. Do it. - Then you stretch it over and you can still feel all the things, right? Doesn't that feel good? - Yeah. - She loves it. If you don't have dental dams handy you can totally get them if you have a local sex shop. I heard some pharmacies in the US have them. You can also use non-microwaveable Saran Wrap. It doesn't taste as good as dental dams, but in a pinch you're good to go, right? You can also order them on Amazon, I'm pretty sure. But yeah, so you've got options to be able to help keep you with a barrier to whatever hole you may be wanting to like eat up. One other thing is really good for safer sex stuff, but also just for fun. So gloves, so these are sexy ass black gloves. Gloves are really helpful also if you wanna go between two holes. Let's say you wanna finger a vulva and then you wanna finger an anus, or you wanna finger someone's vulva and then you wanna put your fingers in their mouths you can always take the glove off. So, it helps kind of not having to stop and go wash like in the middle of sex. Also, if you have nails, if you've got a like a really nice manicure or like those beautiful like acrylic nails that are kind of pointy. You don't wanna like finger someone with those nails because you might tear things inside, right? You're going to tear the mucosal tissue within the vagina. So, gloves can be also a great way to maintain connection to someone while still sort of protecting their body from your manicure. Lube is also a wonderful thing that you can use. Some of us are very juicy, some of us need more time to get juicy with our wetness. And, lots of us need the help of lube and can really benefit from how good lube feels. Lube, I think, is one of the most underrated like sex additions to people's sex lives. - Totally not optional, a lot of times, especially for longer sex sessions. Bring in the lube, bring in the flavored lubes, Sliquid has a lot - Sliquid's amazing. - Of like flavored lubes. I think as I bring back, 'cause like you brought in so many tips and we thought they were a lot. But, I can't stress enough if you are giving, this is about the giving side make noise, like be enthusiastic too, just like verbally affirm like take in deep breaths. Go like, and even just saying things like, "Take your time "baby, I'm gonna do this for as long as you like. "I'm gonna do this as long as you like." These kinds of things are so, they're small adjustments that can make a lot of difference and taking breaks and kissing in the middle and maintaining that connection is so awesome. And, I wanna bring something in, we've got 10 minutes left and I wanna bring up an important point. Because one of the things that I hear on the college tour a lot is people, sometimes do not even consider oral sex on a pussy for hook ups. - Right. - So, some of us are in like some of you are maybe in longer relationships, some of us are dating and hooking up, some of us are doing a lot of different things around what types of relationships or partnerships or sex that we're having. And, I wanna know how do you ask for, how do you kind of think about oral sex on hooking up. - I'm really bold, and I'm bold because I think there's a level that you get to when you feel that hooking up is an exploration of your own sexuality. Like, you are there to build your sexual confidence, to learn about your body by connecting with different people. It doesn't have to mean that someone gets to treat you casually or that they get to assert their own desires over yours. And so, it's really important to me that someone is an oral sex giver. They'll be like, "Hey," and I'm like, "hey, are you "a pussy eating champ?" So, you don't have to be that bold. You don't have to be like right out there. But, you can kind of start when the conversation turns like a bit sexual because you wanna make sure you're sexually like minded. So, I often say things, "Oh, like sexual like mindedness "is really important to me. "Like, what kinds of things are you into? "what do you like to do? What are you fantasies?" And then, I respond with mine as well 'cause part of it is that sometimes we feel shame over saying the types of things that we wanna do because we think we're gonna be judged, we think we're gonna be told no. Like, it's hard to be told that, "yeah, like babe I just "wanna like finger you and like I want you to eat me, "but like I don't want to." - Or, I only do that when I'm in a relationship. - Or, if they mention hygiene I'm like, "Fuck you, left." Yeah, if they mention that there's something around feelings or things like they only do it where they think it's more intimate A, that's probably a sign for me that they're not really good. But like B, like it about like wanting to create a situation where you're mutually meeting each others' desires without any other expectation other than mutual respect. - Right, and there's nothing wrong with two people who don't wanna add oral sex in a hook up. The problem is when it's always gendered, when it's always like someone's getting a blow job but no one else is getting oral sex. That is, I think, something that we wanna call out and just to bring up something we said in the beginning of the stream we have to stop calling everything that pleases vulvas foreplay. There is no main event. - The main event is not phallic dick centered. - And, this is also what it means to queer up sex, right? That sex can look like so many different things. There's not just like a p in v penetrative main event that like a hook up or any sort of sex has to have. This is really about pleasure. It's really about exploring that. It's been so fun to go over this as we have, about like eight minutes left. - We have to give away Clitasaurus. - We have to give away Clitasaurus. So, how are we going to give this away? - Okay so, I think so we said at the beginning of the stream that the clitoris is the only organ in the body that's solely dedicated to pleasure. And Andrea mentioned how many nerve ending are in the clitoris. So, if the first person to tell us how many nerve endings are in the clitoris wins the little Clitasaurus. Look at Clitasaurus, so cute, where's monster Clitasaurus? Mommy Clitasaurus, short nails. Luchia, I'm keeping my nails I like my nails. So, do you have lube in Canada? Yeah, yeah there's lots of different kinds of lube. Sometimes people think that if they put lube on a pussy when they're going down on it that it's gonna taste bad. But, that's not necessarily true. So, there's lots of different types, like find the one that is okay for you. And, it's safe to ingest most lubes. Yeah, communication, absolutely. KittenSix says "yes, guys are so much better "when they don't focus on their dick." Yeah, and a lot of like guys have been taught that that's how you have sex, that that's what makes sex good for women. And, a lot of mainstream porn has also just shown like constant like punishment fucking of pussies. So, there isn't this adoration and oral worship for like what a pussy can do. Pussies engorge, pussies get wet, pussies get scented. Like, those are all great things that we miss out when we're not really thinking about like how do we give pleasure to a pussy? Yeah Luchia. Katie. - Katie. - You win Katie. - Katie. - Katie, you win, thank you Katie. You get Clitasaurus. So Katie, you're gonna email us. I'm putting in my email for you Katie. Okay. Email us Katie so that we can have your address so that we can ship out the baby Clitasaurus for you. - Yay. - Omaya says "which lubes are not safe to ingest?" So, some lubes contain harsher chemicals and so things like usually the ones that you can find in like a drug store. They're not going to cause you harm. I mean, they're not like going to immediately make your face fall off or something, but we're looking for lubes with like more organic ingredients, more natural ingredients. Some people don't like to ingest things like silicone lube or they worry about accumulation over time. But really, you'd have to drink like gallons and gallons and gallons of silicone lube for it to really damage or create any sort of impact on you. Katies says "woo." - Yay. - Awesome. Okay, so we're about to, we're gonna end our stream in about five minutes because we're gonna be talking about queer love next. We're gonna talk about-- - Dating. - Yeah, baby queer here. Were gonna give some like dating advice. I'm gonna talk about what it was like for me to discover my queerness as well. So, all kinds of like dating tips coming up on our next stream, which is right after this one. How do you feel about coconut oil? Yeah absolutely, coconut oil can totally work for lube. Some people find that the ones that aren't, that have more additives in it, so sometimes you'll get like a coconut oil that's like a mixture, or it's diluted, or it's not 100% like cooking coconut oil that can irritate the ecosystem of vulvas. Oils, if you're using condoms or dental dams for STI protection or for barriers oils like olive oil, or coconut oil, or massage oils they tend to wear down the latex making them more vulnerable to transmitting the things that you want to protect from. So, think like sperm, think STI, sexually transmitted infection, think things like that if you're worried about protecting yourself against them. Katie says, "Thank you, so excited. "I'm a nurse, midwife, GYN health provider so it'll be "so good to have in the clinic." Katie, you're doing awesome work, thank you for educating people about their bodies. - And, you will have a clit to show them. - Yeah, yeah LilacD if it works for you go for it. Another great way is, if it's something that works for you you can also use it during masturbation and see how you like to be touched. Do you like coconut oil on your clit? Do you like it on your lips? Do you like it around sort of your mound? Okelly says, "How do you feel about lube with aloe?" I've actually never used lube with aloe. - I do not, like I think that there's lots of lubes for different bodies. You have to figure out what's for you. I mean, if you're looking to ingest and use it in oral sex specifically there's Sliquid. There are lubes that are made to be edible. For me, I know that I have some sensitivities to aloe so I think every body's different. Some of the organic lubes have aloe, but I have a sensitivity to aloe. So, that's all I can speak to myself. - Right, right. Nat says, "Thank you both so much for this. "So informative, and I really appreciate the talk "about challenging the status quo." Yes Nat, yes I'm really glad that you appreciated that 'cause we were pissed. - Thanks so much for coming and thank you for asking the questions about supportive partner kind of tactics Nat. It's super great to have you. - Yeah, it was so great. Okay, are we going into queer love? - I think it's time to go into queer love. - All right, we're going into queer love. So, if you're hanging around for queer love we'd love you to stay. We're gonna be talking about like coming out as a newly queer woman. Like, how do you get a date? How do you find love? What are the apps? You don't know. I'm gonna help. We're gonna talk about like where some of the apps, like kind of capture all sexual orientations for participating and dating and swiping and all those things. And then, there are apps dedicated for women who are seeking other women partners. You're so welcome, you're so welcome. Thank you so much for joining us for pussy eating, too. All right, queer-do. - Queer love. So, we're just going to go into it everybody. So, if you're staying we're going into queer dating. - We're going. - Let's just do some introductions if you're just joining us hello everybody. My name's Andrea Barrica I'm the founder of Oschool. I'm also known as Miss Chiefo here, and I'm a baby queer. I grew up Phillipeno Catholic, never had sex education really. I had the virginity flower. And learned very little about sex in general let alone what it meant to be queer. I was fed a lot of harmful messages about religious ideas on homosexuality. And so, I was in the closet for most of my childhood. I know that for me personally I was told at a very young age that if I came out as a lesbian that I would not be allowed to sleep in the same bed as my baby sister who was my best friend. And, that was like a moment for me where I was like oh, nope. - Wow. - Not queer, not me, right? And, that led to a lot of shameful feelings around sex and my desire to be with lots of different genders and especially women. Like, I was in the closet a long time around that. And so, I'm finding myself now looking to date and be open. I openly started to kind of embrace my queerness at the age of 26. And, it is really challenging sometimes, Luna. And so Luna is someone who is talking about a lot of these topics on dating at Oschool. And so, we thought it would be really fun to go over like all the challenges that specifically queer women face. So, please like this is a space for all of us to talk but I'm really excited to just delve in on what it's like. And, I know that it's something I'm struggling with. Yeah, and I think there's-- - Hi mom. - Hi momma B. That's so awesome, oh you're so welcome Mocha Kisses, thanks for being here, too. I love your intro because I feel like I can identify with a lot of the things. And, I'm 10 years on Andrea, so I also came up in a time-- - You can't tell though right? We could be sisters, we could be sisters. - It's okay, I'm owning it. It only gets better. If you're in your 20s it only gets better. So, we have very similar upbringings. I went to Catholic school as well and I only learned how to get pregnant. So, there was no about like go kiss a girl kind of stuff. And, I actually didn't, I was married for about nine years. And then, I got divorced four years ago. So, even the whole dating world was new to me. I didn't know like Tinder. I didn't know hook ups. I had spent most of my 20s in a monogamous married relationship. So, it was quite like the discovery for me to kind of get out there and be like, I'm sorry, I'm like pulling your hair. It's under my armpit. Oh no, I'm stuck to my dress. Being it's own malfunction around here. But, I didn't know how to even approach it. So, I didn't know how to talk to people. I didn't know how to talk to women. And also, I felt and I don't know if you felt this, being sort of fem presenting I had this sort of barrier because I liked feminine things and I liked hair. And, I was sort of told that
lesbian meant like butch, more masculine, more boyish. So, I didn't see identities really that kind of matched my idea, for someone who's bisexual. And, I only really discovered my bisexuality by like being, I had a partner we were really into threesomes and so we kind of, I was like I don't know, maybe I'm queer. And then I was like, yeah, yeah, queer. And so, it was like a whole new way of exploring. And, there's lots of stereotypes that are really powerful influencers for those of us that are coming out and living as queer women. And, when we don't see ourselves represented we can feel very lost and very disconnected. And, that can effect our confidence so we can't even approach like women. We don't know how to approach them online. We don't know how to talk to them. So, we're gonna talk about like what are some of those steps. Like, so you're queer, now what. - Now what. So Luna and I have a very similar history. I was also married for five years and was with the same partner for close to 11 years. And, another way that I would love to, another way that its challenging is that in a way I was raised by wolves. Like, I was raised in a heterosexual way. So how do we, exploring what queer dating and queer relationships look like without bringing in some of the toxicity are just like some of the dynamics, right not even toxicity just some of the general dynamics and kind of recognizing that, "Oh, this is a new world. "It's a completely new world." And, I'm glad to see that there's some people here Jax, thanks for coming. Feminine visibility is no joke, for real. I don't find myself in the binary, it's weird. I also felt like there's like fems and butches and even though I present fem, especially as I've worked in the business world for so long I feel a lot of kind of difficulty putting myself in either category. - Mm, yeah, I think a lot of people probably feel that. Like it's like we don't wanna have to just be in like one camp. And, with that camp comes sort of privileges around that identity 'cause then people understand you. They understand that oh this is your package. And, the toxicity piece is that as queer women we have an opportunity to not replicate some of like the destructive behaviors that we learned through sort of like heterosexual dating that usually is serving male desire. And so, a lot of like the approaches for me, when I first like started dating I was like but I don't know how to talk to women. And, I felt I knew the game that I played when I was like pursuing male partners. And, I knew like how to do that dance. And, even if it was a toxic dance I knew how to do it. I knew what to say, what they were gonna respond to, who says what first, who makes the first move. I knew all these things. But, with women I wasn't sure, like how to approach them in a way that we could connect on something more than just like attractiveness. Like, where's the connection? - So, let's just bring up some apps, right? If you're a woman on a dating app it's very common to get a lot of inbound interest and you're just kind of like, "ahh, these five don't look like "they'll murder me. "So, I'll go on a date with these five people." And, kind of trying to date women it's like, "Oh, now we've matched and now we're never going to talk "because neither of us are like saying anything." It's something to unlearn, right? It's unlearning like being pursued all the time and being a pursuer. - Yes. - It's unlearning some of the dynamics of just things that you take for granted, I think. And, I actually got a lot of empathy for people trying to date women I started to try to date women. 'Cause like this is complicated. There are some differences to this that I didn't think about. - Yeah, and we don't have any role models. Like other than the L word, like where else are we seeing sort of like a normalized version of like women pursuing women, right? We don't have many of those opportunities. We'd love to hear from you some of your questions around queer women and dating and queer women looking for love and some of the stereotypes that you've heard. - Or queer girls looking just for sex. - Or for sex, yeah. - I think there are also these stereotypes of like Uhaul. But, like if you're not at a point in your life where you want a committed relationship, what does that mean as a queer woman? - Can you explain the Uhaul? It was one of the first things I learned as a queer. - Yes, and I think there's also we could talk about why I identify as a queer woman. I don't identify as a lesbian because I still, I'm attracted to a lot of different people who don't identify as women. And so, this idea that for lesbian culture the Uhaul means that two lesbians will like get in a relationship and wanna move in and commit right away. It's like the stereotype of that is a dynamic that happens which is the polar opposite of the stereotype in often like gay male communities where maybe more like tends to like hook ups and casual sex. None of which is the case, right? Everybody, depending no matter what their gender or sexual orientation can have a huge range of desires and expectations for what the relationship or lack of relationship is going to be like. But, I definitely when I came into this world that was the impression I had. - Yeah, so did I. I was like, "Oh, women want relationships," but I wanted to have sex. And so, I didn't really know how to initiate that. I didn't know like what the rules were. You wanna talk about some of the apps, right. - Yeah, so I know that there's like Tinder. Her is a great app that queer women use and I remember like the first time getting on these apps. I know there's Grindr, we're not going to talk about that. I've never been on Grindr so I can't-- - I have. - I wanna learn about sex. - Only to experiment. And I wanted dick pics. - And OkCupid, I think OkCupid was the first I ever met, I met a woman for the first time because of OkCupid. So, I have a special place in my heart. We bonded over Death Cab for Cutie, the band. That was the connector. And, it was so interesting was kind of getting in. So, let's talk about like queer dating, right? Like, who initiates is and like how and what people are looking and oh even myself figuring out like I think, like figuring out what type of person I'm looking for and how they identify. Right, some people identify as butch and some identify as fem. And, if I am attracted to someone and they wanted a fem or a butch what does that mean of me and what do I feel? So, a lot of that. I got a lot of that exposure on apps, right? 'Cause people would start conversations and wanna know things. And sometimes, I didn't know how to answer, right? And sometimes I would, and I was shy. It was hard to make the first move to feel that fear of rejection that I think a lot of people who try to pursue, I think men and all people can experience this where it's really intimidating to make the first move. - It super is, yeah. And, it can be intimidating also for, when we're talking about women we're including trans and non-binary. We're not talking about genitals. We're not talking about vulvas. And so, particularly for women in the queer dating scene that are even further marginalized it can be really difficult as they're trying to go through like apps and Her and Tinder and also coming across like the things that make them feel even more excluded. And so, asking sort of questions when you're talking to someone, so let's say you match with someone on Her, you match with someone on Tinder. I love it, I love opening with, and I love when someone opens with A they read my profile and said something about my profile. Like, "Hey, you're visiting California," or like "Hey, you like burlesque," or something like that. And, if they don't have anything in their profile you can still make a comment that's more thoughtful than like, "You're hot," or "You're beautiful," or "Hi." So, you can look at their photos and be like, "Oh, I like your cat t-shirt," like, "I'm a crazy "cat lady, too." Or, even just initiating and saying things like, "Hey, so glad we matched." Like, "What kinds of things do you do for fun?" You can start with very gentle, just sort of engaging like asking questions other than like what's up or how's it going. Give someone the opportunity to show you a little bit about their personality, right? Like maybe they're going to make a funny joke. Or, maybe they're going to tell you about the cool project their working on. Or maybe they're going to be like, "I'm going to "this bar tonight." Like something that gives them the opportunity to say more than just like, "I'm great, thanks." Okelly says, "Have you tried Bumble?" Yeah, so I've tried Bumble, OkCupid, Tinder, Her, and Feeld for women, dating for women and for men. So, I found that Bumble, the problem with a lot of apps is that the ones that are swipy tend to focus on photo based attraction. So, a lot of people aren't even reading the profile until after they've swiped. Bumble actually, if you notice, the pictures are quite big on Bumble. And, one of the special things about Bumble, too, is that it originally came out as an alternative to Tinder because it allowed women to make the first move. And, I put quotations because if you are looking or women on Bumble and you both match you both have the opportunity to start the conversation. Bumble also have gifs integrated so you can start with like a funny gif. You can do something that's kind of like a little bit about your personality and then see if like they're interested. Lots of times people on these apps they're kind of like collecting and then they're going through who's most interesting. And, for queer women because the population tends to be smaller on a lot of the apps. That can be really frustrating, too. Because you're like, "Well, I only have like three matches "and like none of them are talking to me." So, it actually says nothing about you if you initiate the conversation, that you're aggressive or that you're thirsty, or you're desperate, or anything like that. It just says that you're interested. It says like, "I'm caring to start "and continue this conversation." Do you have any tips on Bumble? - I have never used Bumble. But, I think for Tinder and OkCupid I think like Luna said I think it's commenting on the profile and trying to be thoughtful is definitely what's gotten me the most kind of luck and results. And also, just being open to a lot of different things. And not like thinking like you have to, like it's hard to know, sometimes I think I came to the trap of being too selective right? And then really just being open and saying, "Hey, this is a way to just meet people and not have to "know exactly what you're looking for." 'Cause I think as a baby queer myself it's hard to know what I'm looking for. I don't know what I'm looking for. - And, I don't know what I'm looking for until I meet someone. Like, different people inspire different things in me. So, the question that a lot of people tend to lead with on dating sites if they're queer women is kind of like "Well, what are you looking for?" And I had an incident on Her, so this was a good one. So, I was like new to Her, Her is the dating app dedicated to women seeking women. It's not the most functional app. It's not as like nimble as like Tinder or Bumble, but it's there for us. - Great community though, really global community. - Yeah, and there is actually opportunities on Her to connect platonically. So, lots of people are on there just looking for like queer women friends, which is great. And I someone said to me, "Oh, what are you looking for?" And I said, "Oh, like I'm just looking to like "meet new people. "I like connecting with new people." And then she wrote back, "I'm looking for the love "of my life." And I was like, "Okay," I'm like, "You're kinda intense." - The same thing happened to me. I matched with someone on Tinder. It was a woman and she worked at Stanford and it was great. And I was like, "It's just so good to meet you." And I got like eight messages in a row. That's like this is what I want and this is what I wanna do. And, it was just so intense. And I remember me going like, "Oh, that's just "a couple steps back." And like also feeling like sometimes the emotions and the stereotypes of like that Uhaul sometimes coming out and me being like, "Okay, how do I handle this?" Because, I think I've had the polar opposite where dudes are just like, "Hey." - "What's up?" - "Dude". And, there's like a huge spectrum from like, "Hey" - To like, "Wanna move in together?" - Or like your opus, your manifesto of life. Or, just like kind of just someone being really forceful like "I want a relationship, is that what "you're looking for?" And, I feel like what that kind of speaks to is some people don't have a lot of time to waste. But, there's really nothing that can substitute meeting over a beer and seeing if there's any chemistry. - Yeah, yeah and if you're looking for sex if you're on Her, you're on Tinder and you wanna like hit it then you need to be able to also say like, if someone's like, "Oh hey what's up? or what I'm looking for? You're basically trying to use the conversation to leave breadcrumbs of desire to whatever you want. Desire for a date, desire for a hook up, desire for like a longterm loving relationship, desire for a threesome. Like, whatever it is you're leaving breadcrumbs for the other woman to be able to connect with you over what you want as well. So, even if you don't really know what to kind of say or what to ask or you feel like you're copying and pasting the same thing you can also speak about what you want. Like, I'm looking for being able to connect with women. Like, I'm kinda new to being queer or I just haven't met anyone that I've connected with in a while and I'm just looking to like get to know someone and explore chemistry in person. That's really important. I've definitely like talked to people for a long time and when I've said, "Hey, are you interested in "kind of like meeting up," they're like, "Yeah, no." - I've experienced that too. - Yeah, like how do you move from online to offline. That's like a big one. And, one of the things it's kind of just being like, like asking, like testing the temperature. Like, "Hey, like I'm really enjoying chatting with you. "Would you like to like meet and explore "our chemistry in person like over drinks "or bowling or like dinner or going for a walk," or something that's a little bit more like low key. I tend to do coffees because sometimes I don't want the commitment of like a two hour concert or like an hour dinner. I wanna kind of just get to know 'cause often like our impression in person can be really different than our impression online with someone where we're only getting sort of a one dimensional experience with them. - Let's just start with Death Cab for Cutie, exactly Nat. Let's just start with some Death Cab. - Just drop that. - For Cutie, conversation absolutely, and like let's just talk about too. Let's just move on like past the dating apps I was really afraid of having sex with like someone with a pussy for the first time because I never got taught how. You're not even learning anything in school about basic pleasure in sex education. So, the idea of doing something that in porn like what are you really learning there. I knew that wasn't true, you had these people with like super long nails, which is possible. Nothing against long nails, it's fully possible, but I kind of knew that well how does it really work. And, just having the lack of confidence. Like, I had a lot of problems being confident. - Yeah, me too, me too. I thought everything was scissoring, I thought you just do this. I didn't know there was more to it. But even being able to talk about like your sexual like mindedness, like what feels good for you? When you get to that point in the conversation and being able to ask like what kinds of fantasies, what turns you on. Like, for me, I love kissing. Kissing's like my favorite thing ever. So, if someone's not into affection, if they're not into kind of touch and kissing and sensuality like we're not going to have, we're not gonna have a good connection. So for me I'm just kind of like, "Oh, we're different." Some people prefer to have those conversations later. If you're looking for sort of like dating and you're not looking for hook up or casual sex then you can save that conversation for a flirty conversation over drinks, or coffee, right? And kind of like just start talking about like, "Oh, your lips are really cute." Compliments are great 'cause a lot of people have a hard time receiving compliments. And something specific, so not just like, what you said like, "Hey, you're cute, hey gorgeous." Like, being able to kind of like take in someone being able to look at something that's unique. So, I'd be like, "Andrea like your hair is just "looking like goddess hair, that's amazing. "Like, have you always had it that length?" Like, you can start with things that are superficial but shows curiosity in the other person that you're trying to like date, yeah. - It's tough out there. - What are your favorite like first date ideas? Like where would you like to go on a first date? Asking for a friend? Also, I'd love some new dating ideas - That's a tough one. I think for me the challenge is I'm not a very big texter. I'm not a big texter and I typically find that like people want to text a lot before they meet. I'm someone that's like, "let's text on logistics "and meet up." And, that sometimes doesn't work and so I think like yeah would love to hear how everyone gets, we don't have the answers here if you can tell. We're just like, "queer dating's hard." - It's hard. - "It's really hard." And also, it's really I think interesting to see ways that these apps and these dating apps and sometimes it is like you're getting so many messages. I struggle to always like answer everyone and feeling like okay how do I stay respectful of everyone and still like survive on these apps. Like, it's really difficult. I have to say most of the people that I've actually had like meaningful connections with I've met in person. - Yeah, yeah what are some ways? Like, where have you met these people? - So, typically just like around like networking and I meet a lot of people through just the communities that I've helped and that I've been a part of. And old friends, I recently reconnected, this is actually a really funny story. So, I had a revelation this year that my middle school best friend that I was in love with her. It was really revelational, like "Oh shit, "I was in love with my middle school best friend." That's why I called her out of the blue and I was like, "Betty, did you know that we were in love?" And she was like, "Yeah asshole, totally like totally "knew that, where were you the last decade?" And I was like, "What?" And, we ended up reconnecting and it's awesome like it's such an awesome thing to reconnect that way. So, I'm actually going through my repressed past and being like, "Oh, my god I was in love with that person. "I just wasn't in touch with it." - Queer moment, queer moment, queer moment. - And also, social media has helped that, though because we stay connected over Facebook. I'd love to hear stories if anyone's like reconnected over like Facebook, Instagram. That's never happened to me but I love those kinds of stories. And, the apps are tough. Like, I definitely can attest to there's a lot of I think there's a lot of finesse and also just like the culture around online dating has become such that it sometimes can feel like a waste of time when you're just messaging and messaging and nothing's really coming offline. And frankly, like I feel that with queer dating, I don't know, for me it's felt sometimes worse. - Yeah, I mean, and so one of the things I struggled with when I was coming out and like discovering my queerness was that like heterosexuality is the assumed default. So, when you're walking around you're like oh okay like I'm assumed heterosexual or like I'm assuming that other people around me are. And, because we don't see queer as normal it's still sort of like a fringe identity and so I didn't know going into like networking spaces if I thought a woman was hot that like I could flirt with her. I thought, I was just like I probably had people flirt with me, I was completely flirt blind 'cause I thought they were just being friendly. And so, sometimes going to queer specific events if those are available in your area like Her does parties in person in different cities. So, checking out those kinds of things that are available even joining like Facebook groups or if you wanna be a little bit more like anonymous about your queer identity Facebook groups usually are private or closed in your area. And, it's just kind of like queer or LGBT dating or women dating or things like that that can help you because they usually organize like in person events. Going to queer networking things also because-- - I've seriously considered getting a side shaved just to send the message like available. - Available, yeah. - Not to be like stereotypical but I feel like these faces don't help. - Kelly says for first date stuff, "So I like to do "dates at diners and lunch counters." That's awesome, I think that's very chill, yeah. There's a big menu, usually, to kind of a talk about and like it's a nice setting as well, too. And Kelly says, "Walks where you can take your shoes off." That's lovely, yeah people who live in this beautiful California weather. In Toronto that doesn't happen. It's only four months of the year. Hey Elsie, welcome. Welcome to everyone that's tuned in. So, we're talking about the challenges of queer women dating. And so, whether you're newly queer, whether you use the label lesbian or bisexual or pansexual or whatever your identity is or your experience with your identity it can be super challenging to find people that you connect with. And, also like how the hell do you talk to them? How do you move? How do you show them your interest? How do you let them know that this is more than friendly? Like, "Yeah, I'm friendly but I'm also like "flirting with you," right? Elsie says, "Oh Kelly those are my faves as I don't wanna "meet for drinks but coffee, walks." Yeah, yeah so we're asking like what do you think your great like first date places are. Like where would you like to take someone on a first date? - I like activity based things, not too long. I think a concert's too long, but I've done a yoga class. I've gone rock climbing. - Oh nice. - Like, going to like a bouldering place. So, even if they're like boring. I tend to like to go to like places where I like the food so that if the date's terrible it's like, "At least I get this like food, right?" And I've had that happen where like this going nowhere but I love this salad. - Yes, yes. - So, that's how I like to typically share food or walks are great, yoga, activity based things in a set container. - Yep, yep that's wonderful. Hi-yo Pauline. - Pauline, welcome. - Awesome, sometimes we can also find it challenging to like figure out like how much of our authentic selves do we like share with people that we're trying to connect with in dating. Because when you're online you're almost creating like a little profile of a brand of you, right? So, this brand of Luna likes walks and whatever and I'm not gonna write like, farts in her sleep. So, there's things that like we keep that we're holding behind that are maybe more private or we're trying to create mystery. But then, when we get in person there's like that unveiling. So, I remember I had a really great date and we kind of met up in the park and I got all cute and she was all cute. And, we had a really great time just seeing if even like our sense of humor matched, right, like, just kind of like chilling and people watching. And, it ended up being like a four hour date. We went shopping for clothes for her. We had coffee and crepes and it was, we were really enjoying each other's company. But also, we were enjoying kind of getting more vulnerable with each other, right? Like, telling stories and like learning about our pasts and learning about like what the kinds of things we wanna do. And, on a profile it's sort of hard to do that. It's hard, you can leave breadcrumbs for it, kind of like I'm an aspiring entrepreneur, I'm a dancer, I'm whatever. But, a lot of times we're putting forth only the things that we think other people are gonna like. So, that can lead to a bit of like a taming of our authentic selves, which is like very interesting for a lot of people, which can be really engaging for people. - Luna likes ice cream dates. - Nice. - Yes, I love ice cream. Anything like sweet I typically am like, yes. Wondering how to show I'm interested but shy. A lot of people wanna know how to show interest. So, let's take a tip from one of our public professionals Cavanugh talks about smoldering eye contact. - I don't know how to do it, but you do it. - I can't show you right now. - Well okay, but he does like the kind of like down and then up, right? So it's like a double look. Yeah, and you're holding it a little bit too long, yeah. - Yeah, like Cav's trick is they said a little bit longer than usual eye contact. I haven't tried it yet but I'm really excited. - I've had it done to me and I'm like, "Wait, are you doing the thing?" - I'm pretty dorky, like I'll get to the dorky of like, "Hey, like you're so cool do you wanna make out," and just laugh. And then, everyone's laughing and it's dorky but it's okay. I tend to like lean into that. I tend to be just very pragmatic with myself. I wouldn't say I'm very romantic, I'm pretty like "Hey, you're really cool like let's make something happen," and just giggle through the dorkiness. - It's okay to be adorkable, like people like that. It's honest, right, like it's cute. - Or if I'm just like, "Hey, I really like that." I think there's certain compliments like that you can make that just show that you've been thoughtful. I know that for me I know that someone's interested when they are paying attention to what I'm saying. Like, for example, you meet a week ago and the next week someone's like, "Oh, so how did that presentation go?" It's like really nice to know that someone remembered and brought it up. So, I tend to try to like pay attention and just be really thoughtful. Smoldering, yeah like smiling and you look. - I like that Elsie, you should brand that, that's pretty good. - Well I just think--- - You can also, yeah. - Oh, go on. - No, I was just gonna follow up with what you said. So, you're using body language to also be able to show interest but like showing that engagement through asking questions. So, I'm always taken aback like when I'm on a date with a woman where like they're actually gonna remember what I said and like ask something and like create conversation. And that, to me, is like a huge turn on 'cause I'm like, you're listening to me, you're trying to like get to know me. You're curious about me. Adorkable. - Very adorkable. Also, I think this is something to unlearn. In my younger days the way that I would flirt is just to like kind of like casually touch someone. And, we know that that is sometimes not welcome and I think, and that's the one thing we talked about ways not to kind of just keep reliving and reinforcing things that we learn in very toxic situations. And so, now instead of that like I tend to make the eye contact after like try to open a door or something. It's like I don't wanna be too much, but there are certain signals that I had to unlearn, right? 'Cause usually it would be like, and I think especially when you socialize with women you touch more anyway. In my culture we're a very affectionate culture. So like, I don't mind if people just like touch my elbow or touch my arm, but not everyone feels that way. And so, I think it's important not to overuse 'cause that for me was like my main playbook or that's how I was socialized to show interest because that's what men would do to me. They would like kind of start just touching you and you'd be like, "Oh, like this person's touching me." And, ways to kind of do that with like gestures or but not directly touch is something that I've kind of tried to incorporate in queer dating myself. - Absolutely, what do you think like was your biggest fear about like queer dating? Like, I really thought nobody would like me. And, I mean, that's kind of my fear about dating at all but because I felt I was new to the community I felt like, "Oh, I'm not going to be queer enough. "I'm not gonna be gay enough. "I'm not going to know what the gay things are. "Like, I'm not going to know gay culture." And then also, sometimes I'd receive feedback that like people don't want, and some lesbians and some queer women, and some bi women don't necessarily, well actually not bi women, so lesbians and like gay women don't wanna play with women or be with women who are bisexual or pansexual and still play with dicks. So, I was kind of afraid of that so sometimes I like over asserted my love of women just to try and prove something. I always felt like as a new queer I was trying to prove something. - I still feel that way. I mean, I'm a baby queer. I founded a company that's around a lot of centering of queer voices and there are always days and situations where I feel like, yeah I'm not queer enough or I missed the boat, I missed the boat. And, no one taught me how to be queer and that fear. And, it extends to sex but I think to your thing it like not knowing where you stand. - Feeling like I don't belong, like another community where I don't belong. And especially people who have been like queer all their lives and for a much longer time than I discovered my queerness I feel sometimes like aw, like I missed out on that development. And, I feel like stunted or that I need to catch up or or that I need to prove something. - Or I have to present a certain way or that I have to change my ideas on something. So, sounds like we're not alone, there's some people here who've just been out of the game a long time and feel awkward. You're not alone. I feel like this is something and I think Luna brought it up earlier, we're just not visible. And so, we're always fighting for visibility or figuring out like how to show up in the world and be queer when it's not always sort of clear how to do that without replicating the things that I didn't like about dating when I was dating men. - Yeah, and some of us are not, it's not safe for us to be out. And so, if you're not openly queer or it's not safe for you to be openly queer or you choose not to be openly queer it can be even harder to embrace that identity in a way that's confident. And find people that you connect to and not like feel like you're only sharing half of yourself all the time. Aria, that's a really good question I hope I'm saying your user name correctly, Aria, thank you for coming. When are you no longer a baby queer, I hate this phase? I don't know, I feel like I'm barely two years. So, I feel like for me it's definitely true. Are there any people here who just identify as queer and not baby queer who can give us some insights? I'm pretty new to embracing my queerness. So, I definitely feel like I'm still in that phase but I don't know if there's like a length of time. I think it's a feeling. - Yeah, I would say that it's a feeling. Like, I stopped identifying as a baby queer when I felt like I was more confident in that well if you don't think I'm queer enough that's okay. Like, my identity is what it is and that I don't have to dress a certain way or like a certain type of thing or go to certain types of places in order to reaffirm that identity. So, you start to grow something in yourself that becomes a cushion for any of the invalidation that you may receive from like our homophobic society. - Baby queer for life, I like that Trixie. I think it's like a really good point too that who put these labels on us? It's not about how many partners you have. And, I think that the erasure of like bi erasure and pan erasure is a problem in like that if you start to date like date people that kind of appear straight then your queerness is like really questioned or are you occupying spaces. That's absolutely not the case and so I definitely struggle on that, when will I not be a baby queer anymore. - And, I think fems have been sexualized for men. And so, it's tougher for me to feel like sexualized and sexually engaged culturally with women. And so, I feel like
I spend a lot of time trying to like get through that and through what's sort of like we've been told about like our femness being served up for male desire and that I can reclaim that in a way that suits my bisexual and queer identity. Kelly says, you know they don't give a badge. Yeah, you don't get a graduation badge for not being a baby queer anymore. I def have a badge. Okay, so there's a badge. And Elsie, I saw that yeah adorkable, we need an adorkable pin. I'll talk to L'amour Prop and we'll get one going. For those of you who are out there and are searching for sort of this like embracing of your queer identity we'd love to know like what other things that you struggle with. 'Cause body image was something that I carried over into my queer identity. I had this like idea that in the utopia of queerness that there wouldn't be any of this like body shame that I experience with men, but that's not true either. There's lot of things around, I thought it would be just like some giant lesbian festival and it's not. Like some women still prefer like no body hair or like are fat phobic or are racist. - Like, I feel like for me it was like I really want to date people of color. Eh, like for a while I was still getting mostly white women who were interested. And, the first two I dated were like white women. And, I remember feeling like okay is this going to be for me and I feel like that's changed as I've gotten a part of more communities. But, I've definitely had that fear of like, "Oh man, I was sexualized by white men for so long." And then, I thought there was going to be like this mecca of like all these different backgrounds. And, it definitely didn't always happen that way. - Yeah, and then even within your other identities like I feel like I sometimes hide my queer identity when I'm dating men because it can be fetishized or it's like, "Oh then you wanna have a threesome." And likewise with like queer women it's like, "Oh, you still sleep with dicks," like, "are you really queer?" So, there's all these pressures to preform our queerness. And, it's really about like I just wanna connect with like amazing women. I wanna eat pussy. I wanna connect. I wanna hang out. I wanna go do things. Like, I wanna experience that side of me because it's alive, like that's a part of us that we also need to nurture. Trixie says "Luna going to your point, experience of, "and years of being out I'm always so intimidated "when the person I have a date with has been dating queers "longer than me." Me too, Trixie, I feel the same way. I feel like I have to somehow catch up in another way or prove that like I'm gay enough or something like that. What's that about for you, Trixie, like what's the intimidation? Is it just sort of the length of time being queer? Like, what is that spark for you? Oh, it is a pin. Omaya found it as a pin, amazing. - Woo. I've experienced that, too. I've actually had an experience where the person that I was dating had been with many more queer people than me and the first like sexual encounter we had they are asked, "are you even queer? Are you even gay?" And, I remember being like, "I don't know, you tell me." And that, it's a really kind of hard experience to feel that and it's amazing how you struggle and never feel the same like the straight world. Then, you go to the queer world and you're like, "uh-oh." And, I think that again it comes back to that erasure of especially not being, "I'm gay" or "I'm straight." Like, there's a lot, there's a spectrum, there's this huge like kind of, and it's changed for me. There's been times in my life where it's been all my attraction to women and then sometimes my life it's like more masculine energy that I crave and it shifts all the time. And, I think even in queer communities there are sometimes not space for that. - Yeah, yeah not being queer enough, having to prove your gayness, absolutely. And also, feeling like somehow like you have to lock in like what Andrea's saying like that you had to lock into one particular identity on the continuum. That can be totally fluid. There are lots of people who also break their queerness into like sexual, romantic feelings. So, you can be like sexually attracted to women and maybe you're romantically attracted to another gender or something like that. It can be very fluid depending on what's inspired by the other person that you meet. Like lots of people are more focused on like the connection to the person and not necessarily about the genitals and not necessarily about the presentation or the identity. And, lots of people are the other way so it's really important for them to share an identity and to share a queer experience. I find that focusing on desire helps with confidence. Yeah, I feel the same way. Do you experience that, too? - Yeah, definitely, definitely. - Desire for something is the foothold, the finger hold. Yeah, absolutely, exactly. You can finger hold that desire, fist hold that. And that can also help you feel confident because it's about your desire that's driving your interaction. And so, you're not so much like worried and waiting. I mean, it's sort of natural to worry and wait for like the validation coming back from someone else like we wanna be liked, we wanna be desired, we wanna be loved, we wanna fuck. But, not having that also can prevent some people from like continuing to experience, right? It's really hard to like deal with rejection especially if this is something new for you. But, for everyone it can be difficult. - Trixie wants to find yeah, "I wanna find a person "to date who's willing to take on a mentoring role as well. "I need a safe place to be more confident in my queerness." Yeah, I also need a safe place, I find and not everyone wants that, I think. I think there is distrust, a little bit, to baby queers. Like, "Are you gonna break my heart?" Like, I think a lot of queer women and lesbians have been hurt by people like experimenting or taking a break for men and these kind of like harmful ideas. And so, I also experience that too, Trixie. And, I do think that that can be difficult sometimes. - Yeah, and the way you can ask for it Trixie is also to kind of say like, "Hey, I'm really new "to all of this but I'm really excited. "And so, I'm just kind of getting curious. "And so, I know I have a lot to learn, but like "I'm very excited about this." Like, I think enthusiasm is a beautiful sign of confidence. It's a sign that like yeah you're going for what you want. Like, this is something you know you want and you're curious about how to get it. My eyes dropping, Buzzfeed, queerer things that were yet to come. I'm not sure what that is Maya. But also, like in terms of wanting to find someone that can guide you in this community and really wanting to be a mentoring experience, that's something that you can make clear 'cause there are people that aren't gonna want to do that, right? There are gonna be people who are just like, "No, like I want you arrive like all packaged." And, they don't wanna do the educator sort of experience. But, it's a beautiful vulnerability to be able to just be like, "I don't know what I'm doing yet "but I'm having fun while I'm trying to figure it out." Like, that's very honest and it's cute, right, it's adorable to kind of like hear, "Okay, well like "let's discover something together." 'Cause every interaction is going to be different it doesn't matter if you're a baby queer or you've been a queer for a long time. Like, every interaction with a new person for me is different. I'm learning something new about myself and I'm learning something new about the other person. - So, Omaya was sharing a baby queer timeline. That you for sharing that Omaya. If anyone wants to comment on it, that sounds interesting. - Yeah, that's cool. - And, to your point to, like I think especially coming from the background that I did where I was in the closet, I didn't really feel safe in my queerness I sometimes felt like I lacked the culture of the identity. And, I am humbled to know that I have a lot to learn around queerness. I do think that some people decide they're queer and they think that it's something new, right? There have been queer people for hundreds of years and like there's a lot of history there. And, I think that it's important that as like baby queer that I recognize that but also sometimes the queer community can be a little bit discriminatory against that when you aren't up to all the things that were happening because you were in the closet or because you it wasn't safe to be out or wasn't safe to have community. So, this is like the first time in my life that I'm around queer people, that I'm like actively bringing it into my identity. Like, this is the first time in my life that that's the case. I do need to ask people to be open to that and okay with that because it just wasn't a big part of my identity. It was something I had tons of desire for, tons of desire for. - Me too. - I would sit at home and be like why am I just obsessed with naked boobs, six year old little kid and just being obsessed with female bodies and not understanding that. So, the desire's always been there but connecting it to an identity and a community that is what's baby about my queerness. And, I think that's the hard part. It's like, "Nope, have always wanted these things sexually." But, it's a totally different kind of move to move into a community where there's a culture and a set of expectations and a set of history that you're getting to know for the first time. - Absolutely, speaking of boobies so who are the queer women that we're thirsty for? 'Cause I wanna know who your like queer crushes are. You don't have to like tell me if it's someone that's in the room. - Tegan and Sarah. - Okay, Tegan and Sarah, obviously, L Word's Shane, Shane on the L Word. - Oh yes, oh yes who else? What about Janelle Monae? - Janelle Monae, fuck yes. "Hey everybody, something that helps me navigate "the queer world as a queer fem with a history "of playing with dicks is that we all have something "to learn from one another," absolutely. - Yeah, definitely Lilac D, absolutely. Yeah, that's so relevant. And it's so true. It's like it's really, I love that you used the word navigating 'cause you are kind of like moving through all of this stuff at your own pace, right? And so, like I used to get really frustrated. I'm just like, "okay, when in this gonna feel like "something like I own? "When am I going to feel confident in this?" And, I have moments and so it's okay like if you get hit by rejection or an insecurity or something comes up for you be gentle with yourself. This stuff isn't easy. We don't have good role models for it. We don't have spaces like this to always talk about it. So be gentle with yourself. - Ellen Page. - Ellen Page, yes. - Juno. - Yes, Juno. Okay, I'm old school I really like Missy Elliot. - Lilac, "I'm tired of feeling like I'm not gay enough. "I've decided that I've got so much to offer "though I may not be a pussy eating champ yet." It's okay, like I think that being a pussy eating champ is a life long mission of mine. And, I think a lot of us, and so thank you so much for being part of this. And, I think like you said before like you have so much to offer, we have so much to learn from each other. - Lilac D it's exhausting, it's exhausting trying to prove your gayness all the time and feeling like you have to try and prove it. And so, one of the things I like to recommend for any kind of dating is really thinking about like what you do have to offer. Maybe you're really funny, maybe you like touch, maybe you like really listen well. And, those are all characteristics-- - I'm good at taxes. - Yeah, she's good at taxes. Those are characteristics that are not necessarily attached to your gay identity, but they're a part of your dating identity. They're part of what makes you attractive. And, when we feel attractive we also are attractive. We bring that to the people we're around. Trixie says, "Totally, I feel that way about mentoring "when it comes to poly dating I want people to come "full package, already confident that they are poly. "I'm confident and sure of my queerness. "I think seasoned queers feel similar for us baby queers." - Wanda Sykes. - Oh yeah, Wanda Sykes. - That works, yes Missy Elliot. And, yes to pussy eating champ goals. Yay. - Yay. - Honestly, I think that there's something to be said about being humble enough to like still be working at it because I think some people get to the point where they're like, "I'm a pussy eating champ." Then, they get a pussy that has like-- - Doesn't respond. - It doesn't respond and it can be challenging. So, I think there's something to be said about staying humble in that way. - Being a champ is about being enthusiastic and curious and playful, that's all it is. It's not about a level of skill. It's a level of like openness and desire for connection to the pussy and the body that you're delivering all this deliciousness to. So, there's no like championship belt. Did I mislead people to think that? Like a World Wrestling Federation belt, a pussy eating champion. Lilac D I'm so glad you feel Missy Elliot. I loved Missy Elliot. I was like, you go, like you're fat, black and queer. It was amazing for me to see someone that was embodying all of these identities that are so offensive to our society. Kelly says, "What's it like dating seasoned queers?" Yeah, that's a good question. - Everyone jump in, jump into this one. If you dated a seasoned queer what was it like? - Yeah, I'd love to know. And, for me I found that seasoned queers there were like pros and cons, right? 'Cause I did experience some of like the bi-phobia and sort of like a hardened connection to a particular kind of identity that they were used to experiencing or used to presenting with themselves. And then, on the other hand I loved like the confidence and the ownership. And I was like, "Wow, so you owned this and this is like "part of your being now." Whereas sometimes I still feel like I'm still trying on like clothes or like my mom's shoes or something, like it doesn't quite fit. And, it's probably also because we haven't quite found like what that fit is for us whereas seasoned queers are still growing and evolving and developing and really like benefiting from interactions with like newer baby queers. - I think it comes from, I think for me I said it before, I was raised by wolves. I was raised in like a heterosexual very straight way. And, it's also hard to feel like how do you know if a relationship's working. Like all the things like all the ways that I learned to rate or feel good about my relationships had to be rewritten, which was a great thing, it was an amazing thing, it was also a very scary thing. Right and so being with seasoned queers it's almost like it's a little bit embarrassing sometimes to not to really know how it's supposed to feel and have to continually check in. Aria, I love this question. "How should you handle being asked about "your dating history when you've only been "in straight relationships? "I'm afraid that no woman would date me because "I've never dated a woman. "It's a viscous cycle." I experience that too. - Me too. - I feel that. - We were both married to men for like almost 10 years. - And then, my ex-partner came out as a transwoman so I was just as queer as I thought. But, the whole time it was that feeling it was, "Well, I know I'm queer but I've only ever been with "people that look quite straight, our relationships "and how does that feel." You almost feel like you're showing up and you're like, "I promise that I like this." And, there's a sense of judgment or kind of, and maybe it's not even coming from the other person it's just insecurity. I knew that a lot of it came from me just being like, "yeah, I haven't been with many women." - Yeah, and I think you can use it as a point to just relate to the other person about like dating. Like yeah, it's really hard to find like people that I wanna go out with and I'm new to this. It's really an exploring time for me, but I have this desire and like I'm enjoying the women that I have been on dates with. Sometimes you wanna carry like shame or embarrassment. And, I definitely have done that. I try and like leave it as vague as possible. But, I think there's, I respect sort of the honesty of like, yeah, like this, it's dating is hard. So like, regardless if you've been dating dicks or vulvas it's challenging to meet people that you connect with. So, that's a bonding point as well. - But Aria, we are just as queer as any queer person. It doesn't matter if we've never, like I have sexual desire for women and fems. I always have. Like we have to remember that nobody else gets to put our identities on us. No one else gets to tell us how gay we need to be or if we are gay. We are the only ones that can decide that. And so like, I totally empathize with you and have felt that same way. But, I think in terms of like being asked about dating history if you feel like the person is not really being open to you I think that tells you something, right? Because no one gets to judge or tells us how gay we are at the end of the day. I think a lot of it is unlearning our own insecurities, but there are people and I have experienced this too, where they're like, "really come back to me when "you've had like five women under your belt or something." Like that did happen to me earlier when I was first experimenting. And those aren't really people that I really feel like need to be in my life, right? So, in terms of like the vicious cycle get out there and follow your desire, follow your pleasure. If someone really charms you go after them. I think it's a beautiful thing. - Yeah, and Aria when you experience that too think about what's underneath that feeling 'cause sometimes our insecurity can be triggered by an experience like that. Like oh, I'm really worried about that, but I also worry about like not being desirable and not being attractive and not being able to make someone like want me or want to date me and that can manifest itself in all of these other ways. 'Cause once you have this like center of like confidence whether it's sexual confidence or body confidence or presentation confidence then those experiences are disappointing but they're not devastating. - Great advice Lilac, you don't own anyone your total backstory either, especially right away. Sometimes I just say I have been in all kinds of relationships. I like to learn from each of them and then I keep moving. Lilac, you've helped me. I will say that. - High five Lilac. - High five. Yeah, absolutely I love that we're having this conversation and I love that we're all just still in the game. This is, I think, a very uniquely queer dating, especially baby queer dating problem, the do be problem. Like I'd like meet women and I'd be like do I want to do you or do I want to be you? It would be very confusing. And in relationships where it's like I wanna do you then there's other insecurities of like, "Oh my god," it's even more kind of intense the feeling of like, "Oh my god, I'm not as pretty" or like this is a big one, "they're smaller than me," right. That was a really difficult thing to have to get over. Do or be, do I wanna do you or be you? I feel like this is a daily occurrence. - Yeah, and then even like figuring out like yes if you wanna do someone, what are they into, right? Like how do you hook up? How do you have casual sex? How do you like actually figure out what someone's into. 'Cause I had all these assumptions that all like queer women were into strap ons and that like I needed to bring a dick into the equation. I was like, "I don't know how to do strap on play." Like, I don't know, like, "Do I have to be the one "strapping it on?" I didn't know what the things were that I could express through my queer sexuality. - I literally didn't know fisting was possible. I thought it was like a joke. Like, I thought fisting was a joke. Like, I was like oh yeah and then I realized it was like a real thing. And like those jokes of like lesbians punch like this, like I didn't get it. Like, I didn't understand that oh my god they're like using that as like the fist and I had zero idea, I thought it was a joke. So yeah, I also, lots of learning. - Yeah, so we have 10 minutes left if there's any other questions or comments you wanna share with us like we'd love to hear them. This has been really good for me to get a chance to kind of talk about like some of the struggles in being a queer woman and coming out as one. And also, in dating and figuring out what that looks like. You've all brought up some really practical things like finding, talking about your queerness and what do you share, when do you share. Do you want a mentor? Do you wanna talk about your past relationships? These are all really relevant important things. Do you wanna Uhaul or hook up. - Yep. - Fisting is great. - Yeah so, we really enjoyed like hanging out with you and chatting about all of our queer dating stories and our queer journeys. On Oschool you're gonna have lots more streams coming up about, this month is masturbation month so there's lots of stuff for masturbation. June is coming up, it's Pride month so we'd love to know what you want to hear about, what kinds of queer things. We will be talking more about like other types of strategies and skills for like getting those queer dates, right, and like being really successful on them, queer sex things. We have amazing educators who give really specific stuff around like queer sex. - This has been so fun everyone, really healing and really excited to keep digging in with all of you. - Yeah, thank you everyone, thank you. - Yay. - All right, so we're gonna see you next time people. Queer love to you, queer love, queer love.