Welcome to O.school, I am very pleased and honored to be invited to discuss sex and faith, which is my forte and something that I love dearly and have studied for a very long time because I am a Christian. Now that said, I am also sex positive. And I get asked all the time, almost on a daily basis, how I am able to reconcile these seemingly contradictory beliefs. And the unfortunate fact is, that in our American culture, it is unfortunately the Christians who are most vocally anti sex or anti sexuality, or anti pleasure, or anti anything to do with sex or pleasure, or the body. And that is very unfortunate, because I believe that our sexuality is a God given gift that should be celebrated and enjoyed in abundance. Christ told us, I came that they may have life and that they may have it more abundantly. And of course, the includes our sexuality, as we have been made in the image and likeness of God. Now if you are not specifically a Christian, or not a practicing Christian, but come from another faith or not faith at all, please, I encourage you to jump in on our chat and offer any questions or comments that you have throughout the discussion, and I will be checking in to see what ya'll have to say and share. Again, my name is Micki Allen, with Micki Allen Coaching, and I am a sexual health and pleasure educator, and a sex and relationship coach, coming from a Christian worldview. And in the interest of giving full disclosure, I identify as bisexual, meaning I am attracted to both men and women, or male identifying and female identifying persons. I am sapiosexual, I'm very attracted to intelligence of any sex or all sex, or genders. But I am living and have been living, a monogamous heterosexual marriage, in a marriage, for 25 years. My spice and I have seven children and yes, we are Catholic. Usually when I share with people that I have seven children, they're like, Are you in the Church of Latter Day Saints or are you Catholic? So it is the Catholic church that I am affiliated with. Although I'm just practicing Christianity, meaning I'm not really that great at it. I was saved, or accepted Christ as my Savior, when I was seven, so I've been trying this for a really long time and been studying sex and faith for a very long time. One of the things that I find most disheartening, however, with the church, is that so many people are hurt by the church that should be bringing love and acceptance and nurturing. And instead, they find condemnation or shame, or guilt. And I do not believe that that's what the good news, hello, is suppose to be about. So I did have several questions that were posed and I'm going to try to cover everything that I can in the time that we have been allotted, but I definitely want to make room for those of you who join us in the live chat. All right, so first of all, is sex important? Well, yes it is, and I can tell you, biblically, why that is so. God, or the Divine, Our Creator, is the author of our sexuality and our sexual pleasure. He, She, It, is the one who gave us our sexual selves. And you have people who will talk about the natural, well I believe that God is the author of the natural. And we begin to explore our sexuality, even in utero. And if you're familiar with the Old Testament, we're told in the Psalms, that even before you were born, I knew you in the womb. And we have actually got scientific proof now that in utero, we begin to explore our bodies. Not just our ears or our nose, or our toes, but actually our genitalia. And why is this? Well probably because it feels good. And so, what an amazing gift from God. You think about these God given gifts that we have with sexuality. We have our sexual pleasure, which may or may not include orgasm. Now orgasm of course, is the height of physical and sometimes emotional and mental pleasure. What an amazing gift from Our Creator. And also, if we think about it, there's an old saying that God must be a man because women are the ones who have to go have periods, go through their monthlies and have childbirth and things like that. But think about this, 'cause I wanna flip that on its head for just a minute. If you think about it, Our Creator gave us with vaginas, a clitoris. And that is the only part of the human body that is or was created solely for sexual pleasure. We know that the penis has several different functions, procreation, urination, et cetera, but, and pleasure. But for the female body, the clitoris has no extra function other than pleasure. Our God is an awesome God if you ask me. Just by virtue of the fact that we have the clitoris. So moving on, sex for men and sex for women and how those two different viewpoints of sexuality are treated in or by religion. We're about to get real here, folks. For most men, sex is pretty straight forward. It's very physical. But for females, the sexual pleasure is achieved with anticipation and longing, a sense of trust, and with a feeling of support. So it's mostly emotional and takes place a lot in our head. And so unfortunately, that has been used, not only by religions, but also by culture, to assume that the male sex drive is more animalistic, more base, more perverted than the female arousal or female sexuality, and this simply isn't the case. Because neither really are base or wrong. Sexuality in and of itself, is very neutral. It is a normal human function, but over time, the church, the Christian church, has used these differences between men and women to lower and build the differences between the two. And this simply is not biblical. In Genesis, we're told that God says, let us make mankind in our image. So we know that we're made in the likeness and image of God. And so in that, we are all from one creator, therefor we are one and we are equal in the creator's eyes. And that is important for us to keep in mind, especially when we start thinking about the ways that the church can hurt its followers. God designed sex not just to be something that feels really good. There is another purpose outside of procreation to sex between the two partners, and that is getting to know your partner and having a deep knowledge of your partner, of your chosen partner or partners. The way we know this is if we believe scripture, where it says in Genesis 2:24, that it was not good for man to be alone and so we need a helpmate and the two would be joined and become one flesh. It's important to note that it was designed to become one flesh, not one mind, not one spirit, but that the two should become one flesh. This virtually guarantees the fact that the two will become one. And so while sex is meant to be a pleasurable experience on a physical level, it's also meant to be a spiritual experience in the knowledge of our partners. And the importance of knowing is pointed out several times in scripture. And here's what's interesting to know. When it says Adam knew Eve and they begat children, when we heard those children, we were probably like Adam knew Eve, we know what he means, God just didn't wanna say the word sex. It's the same Hebrew word that David uses in the Psalms when he says to God, Search me, oh Lord, and know me. The same Hebrew word is used there. Now we know David is not very likely saying, God, search me and have sex with me. No, he's meaning know me on the most intimate possible level and so that is what we're looking for with our beloved, or with our partner, or chosen partner or partners. We want that knowledge of one another to be on a very deep, intimate level. Now that's not to say that some people don't enjoy sex for sex's sake, but when we choose a lifelong partner or when we... Very few people go into a relationship and say, I'm gonna put lots of time, lots of energy into this relationship, only to have it end in heartache. But when we have set longterm goals or longterm commitments with our partner, that deep, deep knowledge that we have of them, the physical oftentimes makes that spiritual possible. Think about it, God could of had us join in sex by holding hands or touching fingertips or whatever. By the Creator and divine design, we are bringing our bodies together in such a way that we are actually entering the other person and it's not always P in V or penis in vagina. Even french kissing is an intimate act, we're entering the body of our partner. And so it's like an artist's conception of not knowing where one begins and the other ends. And that is such a beautiful analogy of that deep knowledge of becoming one with your partner. So I wanna really really make sure that we understand that yes, sex is important and our pleasure is important. They're God given gifts and it is something that we should be celebrating and embracing, even from a biblical perspective. So now that we've talked about that, I'm gonna look at some questions, see if there are any questions that are specific to that, what we've been talking about so far. Let's see, are there Bible verses that discuss female pleasure and will you I wouldn't waste my breath, Chris. I am not a preacher. Thank you, Kristy, I'm so glad you're here. I'm not a preacher, so I try very hard not to preach. I want to uplift and edify and just let my listeners and friends know that they are loved and worthy of love. And that everything you need to know about the Lord, you did not learn in Sunday school. Our relationship with our creator is an ongoing process, very much like our own sexuality, it's an ongoing process. As we go through different stages in our lives, our relationships with people and with our bodies and with our Creator, they will ebb and flow, these relationships will ebb and flow. And so the peaks and the valleys are perfectly normal and that is just a part of the cycle of life. Okay, Justin, as someone who's been through Sunday school and even Catholic confirmation, unwillingly, Oh, that makes me sad, Justin. Definitely enjoying the alternate perspective. Well thank you so much. Let me also say, I did not set out to be what they call a cafeteria Christian. I didn't not say, Okay, I have these views, I have these beliefs, now I'm gonna pick and choose which virtues I can find and try to make it fit this little box that I have it in. First of all let's think about it, our Creator, we constantly try to figure out this incredible being by limiting him or her and putting God in this little box that we can understand with our very minute knowledge of even the world around us. Think about how much we're learning about the universe on a daily, weekly basis, monthly basis. We're learning so much that we didn't know. And so let's think about that. First of all, the Bible, and I'm not a believer in solo scripture, which means scripture alone. I don't believe that the Bible is the end all be all of any type of Christian religion. The fact that we have over 30,000 Christian denominations in the United States alone, all reading from the same text, shows that there's a lot of crappy theology out there. And I don't believe that the Bible is rightly seen just as a book, it's really more of an anthology. I have studied sacred scripture, I've studied sacred scripture as literature, I've taken classes in patristics or early church fathers, and how they interpreted scriptures. And it's very, very convoluted, honestly. We did not just in the 17th Century, have Christ drop down the King James version of the Bible for us, it just wasn't like that. And if you think about it, Christ never actually wrote anything himself on parchment. He wrote in the sand, in the story of the woman caught in adultery. But I'm not even sure, we can't even look at the Bible itself and know that for sure Christ ever thought any of this would be written down. During the Hebrew time, everything was word of mouth. It wasn't until people in the early churches started writing to Paul and saying, Help, we've got people sleeping with their in laws and stealing money from the church, and lying, and back biting, and trying to tear us down from within. He started writing these letters going, Hey, hey, this is not what we're all about. That's what most of the New Testament is. It's like, Look, I'm suppose to be tellin' you the good news. So the Bible, I don't believe that it is the Bible alone. I think the Bible is an anthology. It's like a beautiful library filled with stories from different people, different perspectives, different cultures over centuries, actually, that it was written and penned and put down on paper. And so to just think that it's just like a checklist of dos and don'ts for your life, especially our sexuality, would be a grave error and a grave mistake. The unfortunate thing is that the Bible is meant to be a lamp and a light unto our feet, a lamp unto our feet, a light unto our path. It is not meant to be a book of verses here picked out as weapons. CS Lewis, the great Christian apologist, said it is not the Bible itself, it is Jesus Christ who is the word of God. And my grandmother, may she rest in peace, the holiest woman I've had the pleasure of knowing, whenever I had a question about something that I heard a preacher say or a Sunday school teacher say, she would ask me, What would Jesus say about this in the Bible? What are the words in red? And for those who are unfamiliar with those types of Bibles, there are Bibles that have all the words of Christ written in Red. And so her question to me is to look and see what Jesus said about this thing and you want to know and live by what Jesus said, not what your pastor said, not what this man said, not how they interpreted it. But the Bible is meant to be a lamp and a light to draw us closer to Christ, not a weapon to be used against our brothers and sisters on this planet. Let's see, let me get some questions. How can we talk about shame with our friends who feel shame about their own sexuality? This is a really good question and I'm gonna get to that, Lord willing in... You see what I did there? I didn't mean to do that. All right, so remember the church hurts that we have. All right, big one, okay, big, big one. The sins of Sodom, this could be found in Genesis 19. And if you will read, K, I don't know if I've already said this, but I say this quite often. The Bible is the least read and most quoted book probably on our planet. AndI've had people say, when I tell people that I am a queer ally and a Christian, they freak out. They're like, Oh my God, haven't you read the Bible? I'm like, Hmm, you mean the fewer than one percent of verses that have been interpreted as being anti homosexual? Yeah, I've read that and I've read those few, six or seven verses that have been widely and weirdly translated to mean what you think it means. Because the sad fact is, is that most people who believe certain things are sexual sins, believe these things, not because they've actually read the Bible or read it in context, it's because somewhere, someone has told them their interpretation of these verses, and that's really kind of sad, isn't it? So if you want to be able to, first of all, you don't have to defend yourself ever. Let that sink in for just a minute. But when I am questioned about these things, I, for me, I find it important to know, and I will take them to the source. And if they're brave, they will sit down with me and go through the Bible and we will discuss. And sometimes they're really surprised at what they thought as scripture meant and what it really meant in context. So we're readin' from the front to the back, let's not just take out this one little scripture. But if you will read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, it's in Genesis chapter 19, what is being discussed is some people will say inhospitality. Because in the New Testament, Christ references Sodom as being an inhospitable place. And what happens is Lot's family is entertaining two angels under the guise of two men, or in disguise as two men, and these guys come, this gang of rebel rousers come to Lot's house and say, Let us in, we want to rape them. Okay, so what is happening here is not homosexuality as we understand it today. What is being proposed is gang rape. So I encourage you to go and read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 18 and 19, in the context and see what it is that you would see from the text. And pay special attention to the fact that Lot, who was considered righteous by God, offers his daughters to these rapists in order to protect, because hospitality in Jewish culture was of utmost importance. But that shows us where the women were in that culture and at that time. But so we use sodomy, the word sodomy or sodomite, came from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, which was about gang rape and inhospitality in the first place. But Sodomy has a real definition today, and that is, sodomy is any sex that is non procreative. Let's think about how many cis gendered heterosexual couples perform sodomy. Anal sex would be considered sodomy, even between a man and a woman. Oral sex, all right, is considered, either cunnilingus or fellatio, these are under the true definition of non procreative sex, these are sodomy. How many times do you hear a preacher or a pastor preaching against oral sex? Or telling people, You're gonna go to hell? God hates you because you're performing oral sex with your lawfully wedded wife. Hmm, what's good for the good is good for the gander. I know that sounds kind of sexist, but what I'm saying is if it's good for you and it's good for me, then let's be real about what it is we're talking about here. So know where you're coming from. And I encourage those who have struggle with shame that have been religiously imposed on them, to seek the sources that can discuss these things in a way that is not convoluted with political and cultural meaning. The second way that the church hurts us is through body shaming and this comes from probably the very first Sunday school lesson that you were ever taught, the story of Adam and Eve in the garden. They're frolicking around in Eden and everything is lovely and they're communing with God and they're happy and not a care in the world, and then they choose to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And at that moment, their eyes are opened and they see that they're naked and they're ashamed. So when we are three or four, or five, and we hear this story, we immediately think, Ooh, God, naked equals shame. And this is a horrible disservice because first of all, what we should be learning when we're three, four, and five, is, Hey, you are made in the image of God. You are the most beautiful and closest to the divine as you can get on this planet. You are amazing, you are an individual created and loved by God and you are perfect just the way you are. We should not be teaching our little ones naked, shame, naked equates with shame. Because let's face it, Adam and Eve were not jotting down what really happened, these are oral traditions that tried to explain the origin of mankind. Again, so let's be looking at this in context. Another way that almost everybody across the board that has come in contact with Christianity feels shame and is hurt, is the concept of masturbation. All right, let's set aside for a moment the fact that we have had science prove all of the amazing health benefits of masturbation; relieving mental stress, emotional stress, physical stress, milking the prostate and regular masturbation being linked with lower prostate cancer rates and all these other wonderful things that science has taught us about masturbation, the fact that we masturbate in the womb, so all of this aside. Masturbation no where, no where, in scripture is mentioned. So how the hell did we come up with this idea that masturbation is sinful? In the Old Testament, you gotta love the Old Testament, in the Old Testament, in Genesis chapter 38, we are told the sin of onan, or what's called onanism, which eventually was equated with masturbation. According to Hebrew custom and Levitical law, if your brother died, you had to go and have sex with your spouse so that you could give them a son to be a legitimate heir and keep it, it's all about keepin' the money in the land and the family honey. No one's gonna argue that this was not a patriarchal society. And so Onan wanted to be the next heir. He didn't want to get his dead brother's wife pregnant. And so what he did was he went in unto her and he withdrew at the moment of climax and spilled his seed upon the ground. Now early, early, early Catholic teaching considered the sin of Onanism to be contraception. The sin of Onan was originally contraception, preventing the conception of a child. Now reading this in context, it has nothing to do with the fact that he withdrew. It wasn't the withdrawal method. We are told in Genesis that it was because Onan disobeyed God's will and the Levitical law. So how that turned into contraception is anybody's guess. But now Protestants and Catholics both in the early church, well early church, Protestantism hasn't been around, except since the 1600s or so, or 16th Century or so. But for the last four or 500 years, right, okay. So it was considered contraception. Then in the 1930s, when Protestant churches decided that contraception was not a sin anymore, that is pertained strictly to masturbation. And even the Catholic church at that point said, onanism is masturbation too climax. Again, that's because it's frustrating to procreate a process. So we're seeing here how all of these mental and spiritual and scriptural gymnastics were being done to fit the teachings of the particular churches at the time. So if you want to know what the Bible says about masturbation being a sin, absolutely nothing. In fact, Dr James Dobson, love him or hate him, the founder of Focus On The Family, has actually gone on record as saying, and I'm gonna quote here; The fact is that the Bible says absolutely nothing about masturbation. So what does God think about masturbation? I imagine not much, so there's not point in spending a lot of time feeling guilty about that. Excuse me, we have four dogs, so they're putting in their two cents. But you see, Jesus never ever condemned horniness. This is man's concept and the cultural concept of the time. And so we see how even in the last 70 or 80 years, Protestants have moved away from saying, Oh, onanism is contraception, so contraception's now okay. All right, so let's go back. I wanna make sure I'm getting these questions. New gal, oh, that's great. Would love to see you read something in the Bible. Let's see, dang, I really wonder how the haters would react to this info, oh, yes. Adam and Eve were not jotting down what happened, love it. Oh, thank you. Where I'm from, they say masturbation causes blindness. Okay, I've done a little studying on this myself. In fact, I have, if you wanna go to my YouTube channel, I have a video on masturbation myths. It does not cause blindness, it doesn't make you bulimic, it doesn't make you anorexic, it doesn't give you hairy palms, it doesn't affect your hearing, it doesn't make you sterile, it doesn't mean that you're abnormal, it's not a disease. Let's see, what else did they say about masturbation? Oh my God, there's just a myriad of things that people try to say about masturbation, because of for cultural reasons and for religious reasons. And it is nowhere in the Bible, and to my knowledge, it's nowhere in the Quran, but who knows. Uh, let's see. Lydia did a religion stream explaining that some of the sex shame masturbation stuff was transplanted over from paganism by crazy cardinal. Very interesting, Justin, I wish I had caught that with Lydia. Oh my goodness, so yeah, so okay. So we discussed the sin of onanism. Oh, another thing about masturbation, I do wanna mention this, is because of fantasy, some people believe, regardless of the sin of onanism, that masturbation necessitates fantasizing or lusting in your fantasy after someone that is not your spouse. And here's the fact, our imaginations, our minds, our intellects, are again, God given gifts and these gifts have been given to us for our pleasure and for our edification and to live our life more abundantly. And what people will point to is Matthew 5:27, when Christ said, You have heard it said that adultery, that he that sleeps with his spouse, or his, whoever has sex with someone who is another man's wife, has committed adultery, yet I say that even if you think about it, you have already committed adultery in your heart. So it sounds like he's making it even worse if you're lusting, Oh my God, I'm sorry, the dog. Try to ignore them. But if you lust after them, you've already committed adultery, you've already sinned in your heart. Look at this scripture in Matthew 4:27. And let's see, excuse me, 5:27. The word lust in Hebrew that is used in this scripture, is the same word in Hebrew that was used in the Old Testament in the ten commandments as covet. So you shall not covet your husband's, your neighbor's wife or your neighbor's ass. See what I did there? But lusting is coveting, so it's not what we think of as lust today. It's like, Oh yeah, I gotta have me some of that. To covet something is to actually want that thing that is lawfully belonging to someone else. Now if I'm fantasizing about Brad Pitt or Vera Farmiga, or fill in the blank, I'm not actually wanting to steal that person and bring them into my life. I'm using that as a mental image so that my brain can kind of get me on board. So I'm not technically coveting in the biblical sense. And so this concept of fantasizing as being base and lustful, again, Christ never condemned horniness. In fact, Paul in the letter to the Corinthians, in First Corinthians, he assumes that we are going to have sexual feelings and arousal and desires for other people. He assumes this and he even says himself, I'm doin' what I don't wanna do and I can't do that which I know I should do, whatever. But it's because we're human. Oh, oh, I don't wanna forget this, I'm sorry, okay. In First Corinthians, St Paul himself admits, when he's tryin' to tell the church at Corenthal these things that they shouldn't be doing, he admits, Concerning virgins, I have no command from the Lord. Please let that sink in. I have no command from God concerning virgins, which leads me to my final hurt that I want to cover really quickly in this stream tonight, and that is purity pledges. It goes without saying that these purity pledges, or abstinence pledges, are focused of course on girls, young preadolescent and adolescent girls, who are asked to take an oath before God and everybody, that they will never engage in premarital sex and that they will remain pure and whole. I don't think there's a greater sin that's come out of the church than this. First of all, when Christ gives his sermon on the mount, what does Christ say? Blessed are the pure in heart. Anytime you're reading about purity in scripture, you are reading about purity of heart. When Christ is asked, what is the greatest religion? He says, care of the widows and orphans. So if you wanna come and preach to me and tell me that my lifestyle is not in line with your lifestyle, you best be able to tell me that you yourself are personally caring for widows and orphans, because that if you want to be religious my friends, is what Christ says is perfect religion. And Christ said, I came to, actually scripture tells us, John 3:16, For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believed in him should not parish, but have everlasting life. The next scripture, the one that all these evangelists and street corner pastors and Bible thumping over your head people forget, John 3:17, John send his son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world through him may be saved. Think about that, and he Christ himself, if you're a follower of Christ, Christ himself said, all of the commandments, and remember, they're weren't just 10 commandments in the Old Testament. They're were 613 Levitical commandments and laws, 613. Christ himself says, all of the commandments can be summed up in this; Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and might, and love your neighbor as yourself. If you are truly doing that, you are pure of heart. So this concept of purity pledges, which let's just set aside how incestuous it seems when you think about, Oh, I'm gonna promise daddy, I'll be his little girl and he's gonna pass me off like cattle to my husband. Ooh, don't let the woman that's in me come out now, Lord. Purity pledges are given to people without full knowledge, without full consent, this is coercion, this is coercion. And I am against any type of sexual act or behavior that is coerced. That is not only unlawful, it's immoral. All right, let me make sure I've answered any other questions. Let's see, wondering what your thoughts are on swinging with your spouse. Okay, Hattie, I personally do not live that for a number of reasons. I am very very jealous by nature and I would never ever share my man, my spice, my spouse, my beloved, with anybody, period. So polyamory is completely off the table for myself and for my spouse, totally not diggin' it. Now, some very good arguments can be made for polyamory though in the Old Testament. Hello, okay, polygamy was the norm at that time. And so even when people are like, Oh, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, the perfect marriage is between one man and one woman. Well really? 'cause King David, a man after God's own heart, had hundreds of wives. Yeah, so, my thoughts on swinging are for me, personally it's a no go, 'cause I'd probably end up shooting my spouse or shooting his partner, extramarital partner, but would not be good. It would end up with me in jail one way or another. But because of the very high divorce rate in the United States, and that's unfortunate, especially for the children, but that's a whole nother topic. But there have been several cases, several studies, excuse me, on how polyamory can actually be helpful in a modern setting. Now again, this is not something I personally subscribe to, for me personally, I'm a ginit, as we say here in the south. But I think that some very good cases can be made for it. I think it's something that should not be taken lightly, in that as long as very strict boundaries and negotiations are taking place between the adults and the partner or partners, that it can be something that can be negotiated in a healthy way. So let's see, yeah, the last thing I'm worried to talk about was purity pledges and I'm actually studying that right now. It's something that I'm studying for my work at the Incarnation Institute for Sex and Faith. And it has been a real eye opener for me and just really gets my blood boiling. But I want this to be a happy, positive experience for you tonight. And I guess I'm gonna be signing off here really soon. But just please remember that the Bible is meant to be a lamp and a light. It should be bringing you closer to your divine creator. It should not be pushing you away. And anyone who uses the Bible as a weapon against you, is not worthy of your time, they really aren't. Again, just keep in mind, Christ... It's never recorded that Christ even intended for there to be a Bible, which again is why I think the Bible is a beautiful anthology of very sacred learning and spiritual wisdom, but it should be studied within the context that it was written and I am a huge believer in personal discernment. I believe in a triune God, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If you prefer, God the Creator, and the son, and the Holy Spirit, and I believe that the Holy Spirit allows us to make personal spiritual discernment. We ultimately are responsible for our own lives and our own actions, and no one is going to be standing next to us on the day of judgment, except Christ, who's already paid the price. Thank you, Jesus, but we are responsible. And I promise you, no one's gonna accidentally trip into hell. The great mother Angelica, whom I adore, Catholic nun, just precious as two peas in a pod, says this, no one trips into hell, guys. So if you believe in hell, you're not gonna accidentally get there, I promise. But just remember that what's most important for your spirituality is going to come from your guidance from the divine via the Holy Spirit, or the divine, or your conscience. But shame is not from love, shame comes from fear. And God is love, so please keep that in mind. If you don't recall anything else I've said this evening, just keep that in mind, God is love and shame comes from fear. And fear is the opposite of love, so you know that shame does not come from God, that is something that comes from man and culture and institution. Let's see, I have friends that I wish could watch this. How do you view premarital sex? I've always been taught it's terrible and bad, and have issues feeling guilty with my significant other. I did not specifically talk about premarital sex. How could I of missed that with all the others that I was talking about? But I would love for O.school to allow me to talk more about that part, eventually at some upcoming day if they choose to allow me to do so. But Summer, honestly, I would say... You've been a minister. Actually I am an ordained minister, but I'm not a preacher, so I try not to preach. But Summer, I would say, darlin', that shame that you may feel is not coming from a God perspective. Shame is something that is culturally imposed on us. And that's another thing, fornication, which is premarital, sex outside of marriage is fornication. So all these people that bitch about homosexual sex, a lot of times they're the ones that are out there committing adultery and just having sex outside of marriage. So what the hell, if you believe a sin is a sin, then what the hell are you doin', you hypocrites? Okay, anyway, I am going to have to wrap this up. Don't get me started talkin' about God or sex, because I can't shut up and so when you combine the two together, I just wanna ramble on all night. But I wanna thank Justin for being an amazing moderator, as always. I wanna thank everyone who has stopped in and joined me this evening. Again, I know you're time is valuable and precious, and so I appreciate you coming to listen to this old lady ramble on about God and sex. And if you have questions, please do contact, Justin has put ways to contact me. So please do feel free to reach out to me. I would love to continue and have a dialogue with you. But I love you all, I really do. Hopefully as Christ would love you and does love you, and I just asked that you be blessed and I hope to see you again soon, muah.